Semantics? Knife hand v. Sword hand

[joesteph]

The Japanese term shuto and the Korean soo do are most often translated as knife hand, but I've heard that it has also been called sword hand, instead. In Phillip Starr's Martial Mechanics, on p. 25, he says:

Most striking and thrusting techniques utilize some kind of screwing or snapping movement in the wrist just prior to contact with the opponent. Figures 4-4 to 4-7 show how it is used in the execution of basic sword-hand strikes.

I liked the reference to the sword hand better than knife hand, feeling that, in ways, it may be more accurate. Whether striking at an opponent's neck with your open hand palm up or palm down, you're trying to cut his head off, as though with a sword. The whole forearm is like a sword, and the hand is the part of the "blade" that makes contact; it's the cutting edge. You might slice with a knife, but do you cut off in such a manner with a knife or a sword?

Use an open hand ("blade edge" of the hand) block. Due to the hand's connection with the forearm, doesn't it feel more like you're using a sword than a knife?

It's funny that the open hand, if thrust fingers-forward, is called a spear hand, whether nukite in Japanese or kwan soo in Korean. Perform it against an opponent's solar plexus or jugular notch, and it's more like stabbing with a knife than thrusting with a spear. If the "larger" weapon is referred to in this technique, why isn't the same done when chopping?

I'm not looking to change martial arts terminology, but which do you feel is more accurate, knife hand or sword hand?

POLL ABOVE

Edit: Changed "chop" to "cut off"

Edited August 22, 2010 by joesteph

[bushido_man96]

Its semantics. In actuality, I think the term edge-of-the-hand strike would best describe it, because it just says what part of the hand you are striking with.

The action one uses when striking, like to the neck, is not like that of a sword or knife, because when you use either, you must have a drawing motion of the blade in order to produce the cut. There is no drawing motion in these strikes. More accurate describing the motion would be that of the chop of an axe.

Just my thoughts.

[ps1]

Just a different interpretation of the language...semantics. The two are no different. Because of that... I didn't vote.

[sensei8]

I'm with Brian and ps1 on this one!

[DWx]

I prefer knifehand but that's because I've always used that term. I'd imagine if my instructor had only ever used swordhand I'd probably prefer that. We do say we use the swordfoot (for a sidekick) rather than the blade of the foot though.

But like everyone said it is just semantics. As long as people get the gist of what part you're talking about it don't matter too much. Personally I think people can be a bit too over the top with nomenclature, in ITF TKD everything is named and categorized down to the last little detail, bit too much sometimes IMO. Although having said that its nice to know exactly what and how a technique is done simply by looking at its name and its kinda nice to have standardization across the board.

You also use different Korean terms to us. For us "sonkal" is for knifehand, and rather than spearhand we call just call it the fingertip or "sonkut" and it can be "open", "straight" "upset" etc. depending on the orientation and to distinguish it from single/double fingertips. Although we do actually categorize it as a thrusting technique whereas you say that its more stabbing than thrusting.

[joesteph]

You also use different Korean terms to us. For us "sonkal" is for knifehand, and rather than spearhand we call just call it the fingertip or "sonkut" . . .

Soo Bahk Do uses Chinese; we even count in it (as well as in Korean). The characters for Soo Bahk Do are all in Hanja/Chinese, not Hangul/Korean, although if you see the official badge of the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, both are present.

Soo is hand in Chinese; sohn (and apparently son) in Korean. Regarding Soo Do v. Sonkai, you're actually using Korean in your art, Danielle, while in Soo Bahk Do, Chinese is either mixed in or preferred. (A friend who took Tae Kwan Do years ago always counted in Chinese at that time; now that he's taking Soo Bahk Do, he's using both.)

Soo Bahk Do is translated as The Way of the Striking Hand. Tae Kwan Do, I've seen, is The Way of Foot and Fist. But note kwan in TKD. Doesn't that also mean school or organization or institute (as in Moo Duk Kwan, Institute of Martial Virtue)? There's actually more that I found when I was all fired up my first year, some interesting, and some confusing.

[DWx]

You also use different Korean terms to us. For us "sonkal" is for knifehand, and rather than spearhand we call just call it the fingertip or "sonkut" . . .

Soo Bahk Do uses Chinese; we even count in it (as well as in Korean). The characters for Soo Bahk Do are all in Hanja/Chinese, not Hangul/Korean, although if you see the official badge of the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, both are present.

Soo is hand in Chinese; sohn (and apparently son) in Korean. Regarding Soo Do v. Sonkai, you're actually using Korean in your art, Danielle, while in Soo Bahk Do, Chinese is either mixed in or preferred. (A friend who took Tae Kwan Do years ago always counted in Chinese at that time; now that he's taking Soo Bahk Do, he's using both.)

Ah ok that explains that for me Just speculating (may be completely wrong) but does the preferred usage of Chinese terms stem from Hwang Kee's background in Chinese MA?

Soo Bahk Do is translated as The Way of the Striking Hand. Tae Kwan Do, I've seen, is The Way of Foot and Fist. But note kwan in TKD. Doesn't that also mean school or organization or institute (as in Moo Duk Kwan, Institute of Martial Virtue)? There's actually more that I found when I was all fired up my first year, some interesting, and some confusing.

Its actually kwon rather than kwan or at least that's the spelling we use and the most common. We do also use the term "kwan" for school. Taekwon-Do's a bit of a weird one, as I understand it, Gen. Choi and Nam Tae Hi pretty much made the term up.

[joesteph]

Just speculating . . . but does the preferred usage of Chinese terms stem from Hwang Kee's background in Chinese MA?

It's entirely possible, Danielle, not only because of Kung Fu in his background (and likely some knowledge of Tai Chi), but Korea got hit with Chinese culture even before Japan. He found success in obtaining students when he first referred to his art as Tang Soo Do--The Way of the Chinese Hand, or even The Way of China Hand.

Its actually kwon rather than kwan or at least that's the spelling we use and the most common. We do also use the term "kwan" for school. Taekwon-Do's a bit of a weird one, as I understand it, Gen. Choi and Nam Tae Hi pretty much made the term up.

Of course it's kwon for Tae Kwon Do--The Way of Foot and Fist! I don't know why I did that, Danielle! Kwon is fist in Korean, so hammer fist is Kwon Do, backfist is Cap Kwon, palm heel is Jang Kwon, and yet spear hand is still Kwan Soo. I've read that kwan can be school, organization, or institute, so that holds up for Moo Duk Kwan as the Institute of Martial Virtue, but it can also mean leader, as that the Kwan Jang Nim is the honorable leader of the place (where we practice the art or way). Even Do Jang and Do Bok have their roots, the Do Jang or dojang (jang as place) being the place of the way (where we practice the way) and Do Bok or dobok (bok as a robe) is the attire of the way (uniform).

[sensei8]

Speaking of semantics, we could call 'it' a karate-chop. I've only known 'it' as a Shuto (Knifehand) of its plethoria of its kind. To me, it's just another waza that's rarely used, if at all, outside of any martial arts school. To be honest, in all of my years, I've more than likely only used a Shuto when performing tameshiwara (Breaking).