Point of the BJJ guard game

[JiuJitsuNation]

You know Ps1, I was looking back over this thread and some much older posts and got to thinking about guard and the different types of guard. I thought about starting a new thread but I think my thoughts and questions will go nicely here.

How would you categorize each guard?

example: Defensive or Offensive

Beginner-Intermediate-Advanced

Here are my thoughts to start:

Full Closed = Basic, Defensive

Half = Intermediate/Advanced, Offensive

Butterfly = Advanced, Offensive

X = Advanced, Strictly Offensive

Spider = Intermediate, Offensive

The technical nature of each and when a student is likely to use them effectively is the basic criteria I used to place them as far as Basic intermediate and advanced. The offense, defense aspect I am looking at it from the point of view of what is it's main purpose for which it serves the individual. The reason I put closed guard as defensive is because you are so squared up it can be difficult for two beginners to create an effective angle. And just as life comes full circle so does Jiu Jitsu in the sense that two very experienced individuals can have the problem with closed guard. What you think?

[ps1]

You know Ps1, I was looking back over this thread and some much older posts and got to thinking about guard and the different types of guard. I thought about starting a new thread but I think my thoughts and questions will go nicely here.

How would you categorize each guard?

example: Defensive or Offensive

Beginner-Intermediate-Advanced

Here are my thoughts to start:

Full Closed = Basic, Defensive

Half = Intermediate/Advanced, Offensive

Butterfly = Advanced, Offensive

X = Advanced, Strictly Offensive

Spider = Intermediate, Offensive

The technical nature of each and when a student is likely to use them effectively is the basic criteria I used to place them as far as Basic intermediate and advanced. The offense, defense aspect I am looking at it from the point of view of what is it's main purpose for which it serves the individual. The reason I put closed guard as defensive is because you are so squared up it can be difficult for two beginners to create an effective angle. And just as life comes full circle so does Jiu Jitsu in the sense that two very experienced individuals can have the problem with closed guard. What you think?

It's interesting how different practitioners use the same positions differently. For me, almost all of my open guard is designed to get a grip and either sweep or get a good grip and move back to closed guard. I'm very offensively minded in closed guard and try to never be on my back in it. That said, opponents who are as good as or better than me always try to work me to my back again. But my goal is never to be there and as long as I have an angle, I would say the closed guard is offensive. So, as I use the positions, I would rate them as follows:

Full Closed = Basic- Defensive, Advanced-offensive

Full Open= Intermediate/advanced-offensive

Half = Basic-Defensive, Intermediate/Advanced-Offensive

Butterfly = Advanced, Offensive

X = Advanced, Strictly Offensive

Spider = Intermediate, offensive

Really my only changes had to do with who is using the position. I feel that beginners tend to use closed and half guard as a crutch. They just hold on and are very defensive in the positions. Now you have a few more years on me and some experience in high level comps as well. So you've certainly seen and dealt with things I haven't. Let me know if you think I'm looking at it incorrectly.

[JiuJitsuNation]

I can see and absolutely agree with you.

Master Palhares "Close your guard man. Closed guard is the only guard you cannot pass, must make open first."

I look at it as defensive in the respect that you have way more control without being as active. I totally agree with it being more so for the beginner and offensive for the advanced individual.

I use each guard for different situations and body types. for example:

Closed guard: to slow down faster and smaller opponents.

Butterfly, X, and deep half guard to neutralize larger pressuring opponents.

Spider to create space and or utilize space created by my opponent.

I'm hoping this conversation will shed some light on the guard. So everyone please jump in.

[tallgeese]

I stayed out of this for a bit due to the fact we're a very offense heavy school out of an active guard. Therefore, the main goal has never been soley to regain top from the guard.

I think we're all in agreement that top is a far more desireable position in about any given enviornment. However, my goal from guard is not always to sweep. Again, coming from a very active guard school of thought.

I like how JJN broke down guard focus. I find that I use variants of open guard quite a bit for the offensive reasons stated. It is good to note as well how opponants will dicate some changes to how one plays. I'll almost always look to butterfly, 1/2 butterfly, open, or x a big guy. I'll never drop half of full on choice unless I'm focusing on a developing a specific movement. I do agree however, I'll go to closed very quickly if my partner is just flat out beating me on speed or hip dynamic.

The only thing I'd mention as well, and put in a plug for playing all of them to the best of one's ability, is that as the match progresses you often see and feel how the other half is playing. What he likes and how he moves. Often, you can match up a favorable guard to his game that will shift things back to your favor in tight match.

[JiuJitsuNation]

I'll go to closed very quickly if my partner is just flat out beating me on speed or hip dynamic.

.

This is more my reasoning for placing it into a defensive category, simply because it is the easiest guard to defend(passing, etc.) from.

I can certainly see if we were to attempt to categorize these positions, how it could be misleading. As a competitor I won the vast majority of my matches from my back all the up to brown. Then it was like a switch came on. Brown and black and the more than 90 percent of my matches are won on top, often while standing. I have and teach a very active closed guard.

It looks like we all use closed for the same reasons. I would expect this as our lineage is tightly knit.

[bushido_man96]

Wow, although following what you guys are saying is a bit tough for me, I do find the discussion quite interesting at to how you guys view these. It also appears that you evolve quite a bit as you gain experience.

[ps1]

Wow, although following what you guys are saying is a bit tough for me, I do find the discussion quite interesting at to how you guys view these. It also appears that you evolve quite a bit as you gain experience.

This is very much the case.

As a white belt (0 to 2 years of training), the guard is usually used simply to keep a person from getting around you. They fight hard to keep the feet locked and rarely attack efficiently from the position.

Blue belts (1 to 3 years of training) usually do a better job of attacking from the closed guard, but get lost once the guard is open and lose focus. They tend to see different guards as separate.

Purple belts (3 to 6 years of training) begin to start seeing the bigger picture. They realize that they can open up, get the grip they need and go back to guard. This understanding causes them to become much more efficient at attacking from the position.

Brown Belts (6 to 10 years of training) start to apply the bigger picture. The various guard positions flow into one another, setting up techniques and applying defenses with good timing.

Black Belts (9 + years of training) are even more smooth in their transitions and finish their submissions/sweeps/escape attempts at a higher percentage. In addition, they begin to solve more problems on their own, without the need of someone to guide them through every technique variation.

[JiuJitsuNation]

Wow, although following what you guys are saying is a bit tough for me, I do find the discussion quite interesting at to how you guys view these. It also appears that you evolve quite a bit as you gain experience.

This is very much the case.

As a white belt (0 to 2 years of training), the guard is usually used simply to keep a person from getting around you. They fight hard to keep the feet locked and rarely attack efficiently from the position.

Blue belts (1 to 3 years of training) usually do a better job of attacking from the closed guard, but get lost once the guard is open and lose focus. They tend to see different guards as separate.

Purple belts (3 to 6 years of training) begin to start seeing the bigger picture. They realize that they can open up, get the grip they need and go back to guard. This understanding causes them to become much more efficient at attacking from the position.

Brown Belts (6 to 10 years of training) start to apply the bigger picture. The various guard positions flow into one another, setting up techniques and applying defenses with good timing.

Black Belts (9 + years of training) are even more smooth in their transitions and finish their submissions/sweeps/escape attempts at a higher percentage. In addition, they begin to solve more problems on their own, without the need of someone to guide them through every technique variation.

Excellent!

[ShoriKid]

Care if a grappling light weight (experience wise!) shares some views?

Guard play is something I don't claim to be great at. Offensively I feel best from the bottom, but I look at closed guard as more offensive than say, half guard. Half is the "Oh spit, I screwed up" position for me. Unless I'm looking to move to the back, it's all about getting back to full guard, maybe sweeping.

Now, I don't really mentally categorize guards as offensive/defensive. Just kind of where my hips end up or need to be for how I need to move someone. For example, I end up using butterfly to neutralize some of the guys with more active hips. I can keep up with them better that way.

Now, maybe you more experienced guys can see the trouble with this. Lack of foundation I suppose. But, I come at things from a wrestling perspective. Making scrambles happen is where you land in good positions and if you're in a bad one, get scrambling. I can be patient, but man, at times it's hard. I'm better on defensive patients than offensive patients. What little I do teach for the ground, I don't teach how I do things. I know, do as I say not as I do comes up a lot. I teach closed guard as a defensive control of the hips and posture. But, also as a way to get to the offensive side of things or to get to the top and up.

So, now that I've laid out my faulty bits, care to point me in the right direction? A general change in philosophy called for in guard use. Do you really need to categorize them into an offensive/defensive mind set (at least in the beginning), to help you build your base?

[JiuJitsuNation]

Seems to me deep half guard and it's many variations is not an area every school delves in. There are so many options between half, butterfly and x guard and they flow seamlessly together. Often the cons with one are answered with a simple transition to one of the others. All of which flow nicely into spider/open/de la hiva which flow back to closed and then in reverse. The guard is one of the most interesting and forever evolving pieces in BJJ. I love the endless amount of play and learning one can get from this area of grappling.