Interesting analogy that I came up with (kata/kumite/fight)

[ShoriKid]

Being lazy cost me being first in with the debate being more like competition/sparring.

You have two opposing sides, a set of rules and everyone knows what those rules are from the outset. An impartial third party is the one that determines the winner by how well you stick to the rules and how well you preform under them. Everyone who is there can appreciate the back and forth and, while you might lose, you may score some impressive points that you or your opponent come away with some insight from.

Kata is not a song. Because I can't sing. Can't dance either. I like to try both when no one is around though.

Kata is like a classic speech. It's set and fixed in contents. But, it has come down through time to communicate an idea. Without the history of the speech, you can't fully understand it, and much of it's meaning is lost. Once you learn that though, you can take away the deeper meaning. You just have to work at it.

See, I can read speeches from ancient through the modern era and get something from them. I still can't sing it whether its a modern hit or a medieval melody.

[bushido_man96]

Nice thought, Shorikid.

[JiuJitsuNation]

I find this analogy interesting for one reason. In hip hop they have what they call "battles" and to win this battle you have to be able to freestyle, something VERY few people are able to do. Which means they think of the lyrics as they speak. Those who excel in this area are considered extremely talented and rare. While many in the music industry may look good on stage and have pretty voices they would never last 30 seconds in a "battle".

Artists like Eminem and Lil Wayne although not appreciated by all got to be where they are for there ability to think on the spot. These guys have become vastly more wealthy than many of their predecessors ( in any genre)as i'm sure these abilities suit them in business as well.

[joesteph]

Somehow we regularly get into kata.

I like RW's kata analogy, and what works for him in the concept is song. I wouldn't say that kata is not song, ShoriKid, but I would say that, to you, it is not song but a classic speech, and that's what analogy concept works for you. There's still that connection with RW's talking/conversation base that separates an analogy of kata from that of an actual fight and of kumite.

BTW, RW, your reference to song made me think of music, of course, and I wondered if you were familiar with the prequel to The Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion. Tolkien has the universe created through music in that work.

[bushido_man96]

Wouldn't the Simarillion actually be the prequel to The Hobbit, which is the prequel to The Lord of the Rings? Sorry, maybe I'm splitting hairs...and going off topic...

[joesteph]

Wouldn't the Simarillion actually be the prequel to The Hobbit, which is the prequel to The Lord of the Rings?

I'd say that's accurate, Brian, and I'm going to make sure I see The Hobbit when Ian McKellan revives his role as Gandalf the Grey. It's expected to be out in 2012.

But back to analogies . . .

[RW]

I think it is an interesting analogy, and there are some parallels there.

So, what happens if I can't sing worth a crap?

You can be a good talker but a bad singer

[RW]

You could equate fighting (real fighting) to a conversation . . .

Kumite . . . is like those conversation drills you get in language classes: You talk to someone else, about a topic you agreed on, and there are some rules to that prefabricated conversations.

Kata is... like learning the lyrics of a song.

So . . .

• - Would you say, RW, that if we extend what you've said about a conversation (real fighting) going wrong, it's like having an argument?
   
  - While kumite, which has rules, is like formal debate, which also has rules?
   
  - And kata is as a song whose words are carefully chosen, expected to be pondered, and meant to convey a message?

I like the analogy; you obviously gave it a lot of thought. I just wanted to go with the flow of it.

Yup!

I came up with the analogy because I was singing a song in a different language that I don't speak, whiel following the lyrics (and translation) in youtube. I realized I could actually sing the song now without looking at the lyris, and I even knew the words and meaning of the song... but that doesn't mean I can speak the language

[RW]

Somehow we regularly get into kata.

I like RW's kata analogy, and what works for him in the concept is song. I wouldn't say that kata is not song, ShoriKid, but I would say that, to you, it is not song but a classic speech, and that's what analogy concept works for you. There's still that connection with RW's talking/conversation base that separates an analogy of kata from that of an actual fight and of kumite.

BTW, RW, your reference to song made me think of music, of course, and I wondered if you were familiar with the prequel to The Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion. Tolkien has the universe created through music in that work.

I've been meaning to read the Silmarillion for a long time!!! I didn't know about the part of creating the universe through music. Now I definitely have to read it.

[bushido_man96]

You could equate fighting (real fighting) to a conversation . . .

Kumite . . . is like those conversation drills you get in language classes: You talk to someone else, about a topic you agreed on, and there are some rules to that prefabricated conversations.

Kata is... like learning the lyrics of a song.

So . . .

• - Would you say, RW, that if we extend what you've said about a conversation (real fighting) going wrong, it's like having an argument?
   
  - While kumite, which has rules, is like formal debate, which also has rules?
   
  - And kata is as a song whose words are carefully chosen, expected to be pondered, and meant to convey a message?

I like the analogy; you obviously gave it a lot of thought. I just wanted to go with the flow of it.

Yup!

I came up with the analogy because I was singing a song in a different language that I don't speak, whiel following the lyrics (and translation) in youtube. I realized I could actually sing the song now without looking at the lyris, and I even knew the words and meaning of the song... but that doesn't mean I can speak the language

And with that thought in mind, I think of the threads in the past on the "importance" of the language used in MA classes...English, Japanese, Korean...etc...