Karate and tai chi chuan

[Adam_XKT]

I've spent seven years doing karate. For a number of reasons, I went to my first tai chi chuan class last week. (I believe the instructor mentioned other arts but I can't recall them off the top of my head). I still haven't been able to really grasp it with a very brief introduction, and what I did get wasn't explained very well.

Specifically, we went through the movements of the first section of the Yang form with 108 movements.

I am completely unfamiliar with tai chi chuan so I'm looking for some advice from those who have, and especially those who have combined that experience with karate knowledge. If you have trained in both of these, what are the biggest benefits or pitfalls of combining the two? Did you inherently like one better than the other? Why are these good (or bad) to cross-train with?

[DWx]

Don't do karate bit did do TKD and Tai Chi Chuan together for a couple of years. My teacher taught us the 24 form.

The biggest benefit for me was the emphasis placed on the hip motion and the idea that the hip drives all other movement. While we of course know this in TKD, in Tai Chi we'd spend hours just walking up and down the room in stances paying particular attention to the hip movements. Improved my TKD no end.

Also helped me relax a lot more. Bad habits such as tensing throughout a movement or holding tension anywhere in the body. TBH I found it very difficult to be completely be relaxed. There'd always be some tension somewhere.

The problem I had was that Tai Chi was too slow for me. I'd want to do all the movements as fast as we did the "slow" movements in my TKD forms, which compared to Tai Chi isn't all that slow. But that's my fault not the style's. Other problem was that because it was a public class, it was full of older people (my mum even went along too). A lot of them were more interested in the health benefits so we didn't spend as much time on applications and partner work. The pace was also slower too. Maybe because of TKD I could pick up the sequence faster that most of the rest but we'd spend ages going over and over things.

[joesteph]

I've spent seven years doing karate. . . .

Specifically, we went through the movements of the first section of the Yang form with 108 movements. . . .

Why are these good (or bad) to cross-train with?

When I was first introduced to martial arts in my thirties, it was by being tutored by an Isshinryu friend who'd earned his green belt when he was younger. A striking art; contact sparring was our main focus. I decided to try attending karate class, taking lessons in Tae Kwon Do, but it's a high-kicking art, my kicks were and are all low, and it was non-contact at that time. I did receive a promotion, but when a Tai Chi class was being offered locally, I signed up for it, as my Isshinryu-background friend signed up for it in his area. Both were Yang style.

My Tai Chi instructor became ill and the classes ended; my friend married and where he moved to, my area, meant the end of his classes in his old school. So we combined Tai Chi knowledge in a sense, and he was more advanced than I was. At a certain point, we got a Tai Chi book and practiced a two-man form.

Here it is, years later, that I've studied Soo Bahk Do, a Korean art that my children study, and there's a series developed by GM Hwang Kee, the founder, called the Chil Sung (Seven Stars) series. I'm at green belt level and learned the first two of these forms.

In one portion of the second in the series, it was explained that a certain move within the form that's done three times is, each time, capable of seizing someone's lapel and crossing it in front of him, as a clothing choke. I see it as borrowed from the Yang long form, and found something I'd learned in the two-man form having direct application as well.

To me, the first part of the move is like an X to strongly pop someone's hands off you or lacking control of you as you pull down on his arms at the upper-lower arm crease, unbalancing him while you are "rooted" so that he can't kick you in the groin, but you can give him a good kick underneath to strike the scrotum. You might accidentally head butt him in the nose while doing this. Your hands are in place to ram your thumbs into his eyes; your hands are in place to seize him by his chin and the back of his head and twist him to the floor. Your hands are in place to seize him with both hands at the back of his head, pull his head down, and then go to town.

That X-pop, moving the arms for control of his arms/balance, and kick were all practiced by my friend and me years ago; the two-man form demonstrated how the pull on your opponent unbalances him so that he can't kick you--as soon as he even tries to raise his leg he's way off balance. I tried to get a couple of others interested in this application, but it was after class, and I'm certainly not a MA teacher. Yet what little I did do, I realized was feasible, and that's one segment in the karate form that I interpreted through Tai Chi.

Tai Chi will enable you to maintain balance on one leg and fight, not always needing two. A way of generating power into your strikes through being rooted and in more perceptive control of your body will be found. You will also move slowly to achieve proficiency in the form, and martial applications will unfold. I wouldn't recommend it for someone under age thirty, simply because youth craves rapid action.

In my hometown, what's offered tends to be during the day at senior centers, or in the community ed program that meets a limited number of times. A neighboring town had offered it in the past, but no more. I've wondered if the latest emphasis on yoga has had an impact.

I envy you that you have Tai Chi lessons available to you, Adam. Good luck with them.

[Adam_XKT]

Sorry for not checking back earlier than I did.

Also helped me relax a lot more. Bad habits such as tensing throughout a movement or holding tension anywhere in the body. TBH I found it very difficult to be completely be relaxed. There'd always be some tension somewhere.

We worked a partner drill last night for relaxation, and at least three people commented on how tense I seem. Hopefully tai chi enables me to be more relaxed.

Joe - It was interesting to see the demographic that mainly showed up...a number of older, gray-haired women, and two younger(ish) guys still older than me. The teacher himself is turning 60 this year but is a renowned area martial artist.

I was in favor of this class last week, but after this week's, I realize that this has potential to really enhance my karate training while giving me some new moves in my arsenal. My karate school practices a lot of kata work, and I'm hoping to use some tai chi influence to come up with different defense in kata work in the future.

Thanks for the responses!

[Jay]

This is one of the best combinations you can get. My instructor taught both Tai Chi and Shotokan. It really really helps with everything. Force transfer, sensitivity, blocking even striking because you learn a certain togetherness

[dwarf2]

I started teaching yang style tai chi long form in 1992 and it is a great style for health and is good if you have a understanding of what the form really means . It is like one giant kata and every move has a martial art meaning but most people are happy with the health side.

[Adam_XKT]

We are doing Yang style as well.

I've learned a number of martial techniques for it but haven't had the opportunity to actually work many of them due to time.

[ninjanurse]

The benefits of Tai Ji are many and the applications of its movement concepts greatly enhance the practice of any other martial art. If you have an opportunity to study you should do it!

[dwarf2]

In tai chi we use to break down every move with a partner. I don't know how that you practice it but we started with lift hands to the front and then holding the ball and stroke the peacocks tail . The names vary from school to school . If you know what they do then when you do holding the ball, you will end up with your partners head in the move. Then you will crank this is with the school i taught for . I like the art for health more than for fighting . Tai chi is great for the mind and it is used for all kinds of health reasons.

[tonydee]

I highly recommend the combination. A good instructor is even more important for tai chi than it is for karate - indeed, one distinction I've heard used between internal and external arts is that you can't learn internal arts just by watching them performed. There are a huge majority of tai chi instructors who couldn't use their art in any kind of conflict - the peaceful / health side of tai chi is so common that in many cases several generations of instructors won't have had any practical applications in mind and the movements will have drifted so far from martial that they're totally compromised. With your karate experience, if you keep it up for a few months I'm sure you'll get a feel for the potentials in the tai chi school you're with, and if the school has drifted a little but not too far from true, then you may very well intuit more of the martial application that the instructor has.

In particular, I highly recommend the sensitivity exercises - they develop your ability to accept and deflect an attack without untoward resistance, as well as to explode into an attack before the opponent can react. A very simple intro to my favourite movement is at http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=8jajIgfGaaQ&feature=related, though this doesn't show the more martial application of developing explosive power. Two experienced artists practicing together will try to use any excess rigidity in defense as an opportunity to pass a shock through the defender's body and destabilise them, and any weakness in defense as a chance to hit them before they can tense sufficiently. Learning to turn a block/deflection into a grasp or attack at any point along it's route is very important for any striking arts, and certainly the combination of hapkido and tai chi helped me refine the raw power- and speed-oriented striking technique I had in my early years, which tended to overcommitment at times (though few in my old school understood how to exploit that). The parallels with wing chun are noteworthy too... at their best, both arts refine sensitivity to a very high level through such drills.

Interestingly, Kanazawa-sensei has achieved a high level in tai chi and - while of course he's careful not to praise it too highly - clearly values it.