Lineage

[Adam_XKT]

I realize I'm tackling a very broad range here, but I was taking a more active look at my school's lineage this summer.

After we trace it back to Chatan Yara, there is a nearly 1,000-year disparity between him and Bodhidharma.

Does anybody have any clue about what happened to the lineage in that time?

If it helps, I train in Okinawan Shuri-ryu.

[ps1]

Sorry to say, but most of ancient martial art history is mere speculation. That includes Bodhidharma. There is very little written evidence of lineage dating back that far. Frankly, you're lucky you have it as far back as you do.

[StrangeBacon]

Sorry to say, but most of ancient martial art history is mere speculation. That includes Bodhidharma. There is very little written evidence of lineage dating back that far. Frankly, you're lucky you have it as far back as you do.

This.

The further back you go the less and less evidence you get and people tend to "fill" in the spaces with their own interpretation of things, a bit like chinese whispers i guess

[sensei8]

If you could get your hands on your styles Densho's, then possibly within the Densho's you'd find the lineage. I only suggest this because that's the place where our styles lineage can be found...in the Densho's.

[mindsedgeblade]

Seems to me, most arts are lucky to have a clear path back a century. It's certainly true for any of the Korean arts, and the whole of Asia has always been war torn (Korea, Okinawa, Japan, etc, etc). For example- it's simple to go back to about 1910 in my school, but after that, fahgeddaboudid!

[honoluludesktop]

Lineage is only as good as one's teacher is.

[bushido_man96]

Sorry to say, but most of ancient martial art history is mere speculation. That includes Bodhidharma. There is very little written evidence of lineage dating back that far. Frankly, you're lucky you have it as far back as you do.

Agreed. Bodhidharma has never been nailed down as the great originator of MAs in China as many believe he is to be. Its all myth and speculation.

[Adam_XKT]

Lineage is only as good as one's teacher is.

Yes.

However, I'm not interested in learning the lineage hard and fast. But I think there has to be something more than a guy in the 1700s straight to the 500s.

Sensei8 - Would you mind informing me what a densho is? I've never heard that term before.

[bushido_man96]

The sad fact of the matter is that the farther back you go, the harder it is to find records of who did what and when. Being able to trace down one person like that gets harder and harder, the more obscure they get.

[isshinryu5toforever]

To echo what's been said, history is only written down if it's deemed important. Things like wars, major battles, dynasty changes, those will be written down, who taught some lucky man in his 20s from Okinawa's Chan Village how to kick and punch first isn't likely to be written down anywhere. There isn't really an origin for any martial art. Boxing and wrestling seem to be the oldest, but no one has a clue when they started. Who first codified a true systematic way to learn a weapon? There's a ton of speculation, no hard evidence.

Densho, if I'm not mistaken, I'm a youngin' and not versed in Japanese, is the transmission record of your martial art. Example, Goju Ryu can be traced back to Chojun Miyagi who learned from Kanryo Higaonna. It's said that Higaonna learned from Ryu Ryu Ko in Fuzhou in China. IF, you accept that as fact, then Higaonna was in China for 4 years prior to training with Ryu Ryu Ko, which means he was likely training with someone else. There's speculation as to who this person was, can't remember the name, I'll dig it up later. That means that Ryu Ryu Ko was Higaonna's teacher, but not his only teacher, which means the influence of Higaonna and thus Miyagi's Karate is much broader. See how complicated questions of transmission can get? No one is positive who Ryu Ryu Ko learned from, but there is more solid evidence than for the other person Higaonna learned from.

You have to remember that Okinawan Karate Kempo only started to formalize in study and standard under heavy Japanese influence. That means as Gichin Funakoshi was growing up (you can read about this in his book Karate-Do, My Way). He was born in 1868 (depending on who you ask), the first year of the Meiji Restoration. Now, Funakoshi was a highly educated man, which means that he probably had the foresight to see that moving Karate to Japan would be a big undertaking, and it would have to be done in a specific way (in this case schools), and that it would have to be done in the Japanese manner. It became much more strict, more rigid, formal, and the importance of lineage and transmittance came up.

Okinawan Karate Kempo on the other hand was still taught as the Chinese taught Gongfu. The master taught his disciples until they were good enough to go out on their own, and then they did so and found disciples of their own. It was very informal, and a lot of people had multiple masters. In honesty, you're lucky if the history from you to Chatan Yara is 100% accurate.