Kata and Kumite

[sensei8]

There are two sides of any argument. The one side agrees with the benefits of kata. The other side disagrees that there are benefits in kata. Nonetheless, either side will not agree with the other. In the game of chess, this is known as a stalemate.

Now; go train!

[bushido_man96]

I wouldn't say that kata has no benefits. I've written an article on the benefits of forms training. What I would question is the relevance of forms training to self-defense training, and whether or not there is a better way than forms training to train in self-defense.

[ps1]

Hi ps1, While I primarily agree with you, I don't completely discount the value of kata. Dancing is a skill that in some instances can be beneficial to a fighter. Most real fighter's training is "set up" to prevent injury, while getting as close to experiencing the fight as possible, and even champion boxers and mma'ist do a lot of dancing as part of training. Also, in Karate, it's difficult to get a lot of willing partners to trade blows, just to practice. One must also take into the consideration the belief that excessive contact can work against a fighter through the creation of involuntary flinching, etc.

When I kata, I try to move as though it is in reflex to distance, with the feelings I have experienced in kumite. Can't do any more the that.

You accentuate my point. The reason many athletes (football, boxing, basketball ect...) take dancing is for the athleticism it fosters. However, there are no football players, basketball players, boxers ect. that will tell you dancing is the key to their sport. It's exercise, nothing more. LBJ's shooting ability does not come from dancing, it comes from countless hours of shooting and innate ability. In sharp contrast, I spent a great deal of in class training time doing kata and forms. While they have likely contributed to my athleticism, they did not contribute to my fighting ability. In fact, I could argue that they hindered it with bad habits that I'm still trying to break.

Time in class should be spent with partner drills, IMO. But this is a little off thread and not really the discussion I want to get into here as it's been held countless times before.

[RW]

I wouldn't say that kata has no benefits. I've written an article on the benefits of forms training. What I would question is the relevance of forms training to self-defense training, and whether or not there is a better way than forms training to train in self-defense.

Link? (To your article)

[ps1]

I wouldn't say that kata has no benefits. I've written an article on the benefits of forms training. What I would question is the relevance of forms training to self-defense training, and whether or not there is a better way than forms training to train in self-defense.

Link? (To your article)

http://www.karateforums.com/what-forms-are-good-for-vt28231.html?highlight=benefits+kata

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for linking to my article, ps1.

Time in class should be spent with partner drills, IMO. But this is a little off thread and not really the discussion I want to get into here as it's been held countless times before.

I agree with you here. More time in partner drills will lead to increases in sparring ability and with self-defense skills, if these drills are focused in these areas.

[brickshooter]

I think it's the individual. The winners of any sports are hyper-competitive and they're willing to go the extra mile to gain a competitive advantage. Losing in a kata competition hurts just as bad as losing in kumite. For them, losing is just losing.

They don't reason that kumite is more or less important than kata. It burns them just the same to lose. Consequently, they train more than the rest of us. Far more.

Re Athleticism. Obviously, it is a big factor. But at the highest level of competition, everyone is an athlete. But there are some who will get more out of their ahtleticism by working harder in the weight room or on the tracks. Those are the hyper-competitive ones.

[RW]

I think it's the individual. The winners of any sports are hyper-competitive and they're willing to go the extra mile to gain a competitive advantage. Losing in a kata competition hurts just as bad as losing in kumite. For them, losing is just losing.

They don't reason that kumite is more or less important than kata. It burns them just the same to lose. Consequently, they train more than the rest of us. Far more.

Re Athleticism. Obviously, it is a big factor. But at the highest level of competition, everyone is an athlete. But there are some who will get more out of their ahtleticism by working harder in the weight room or on the tracks. Those are the hyper-competitive ones.

I also feel that some karate schools have destroyed the utility of kata, and dilluted the concept of what a kata is.

I've seen countless times people do shuto-uke defenses in competitive kata by extending their hands rrrreeeeaaaallllllyyyyy slllooowwwlllyyyy, sometimes even making the forearm and hand "shake" like when somebody is trying to lift too much weight, while groanting and exhailing really loud, making a "I'm going to kill you" face. Then the judges all get impressed and score them big points. How is this helping how to fight in any way, shape or form?

What about people who pull a really strong punch, that ripples the Gi, while they scream "KKKIIIAAAAAAAIIIIII" while they make a funny facial expression with WIDE eyes and showing all their teeth? I'd like to see them win a fight. (By the way, I see this kind of people win trophies in kata competitions really frequently)

This over-worked theatricality hurts kata's ability to help with fighting skills.

And then, there's this whole "creative kata" concept that I dislike so much. A karate teacher chooses a "special student" (teacher's pet, or guy who pays a lot in whatever, or guy who doesn't go to school enough -lol- or whatever) and teaches him/her a choreography, full of super-flashy 360 degree spin kicks, air somersaults, cartwheels and "tippy tappy" kicks (like that move where the student does a quick low mawashi geri, then a mid one, then a super high one, without ever putting his leg down and without actually generating that much strength.). Sometimes these creative katas are accompained by music, usually the mortal kombat theme song, or a "clever" remix where you hear "and now, a taste for things to come.." and then the mortal kombat music explodes, with the volume set to super-high. As you might have guessed, the student with the most somersaults, cartwheels, lightining-quick tippy tappy kicks and dancy moves scores big points with the judges.

How exactly does "creative kata" help anything?

Also,at least in my experience, the little "stars" that win in "creative kata" and/or overdramatic traditional katas are usually the ones who don't do that well in sparring (even point sparring).

Of course, these hideous practices have nothing to do with the realistic, traditional kata that people also practice, the kind of kata that you guys practice.

[brickshooter]

The interesting thing is that showmanship also found its way to kumite competition. One has to be conscious of where the ref and judges are. One has to hold one's attack out a little longer to impress the judges. Yell to make sure the judge awards the point. Sometimes, one strikes a little "pose" after making contact.

A lot of drama.

[RW]

The interesting thing is that showmanship also found its way to kumite competition. One has to be conscious of where the ref and judges are. One has to hold one's attack out a little longer to impress the judges. Yell to make sure the judge awards the point. Sometimes, one strikes a little "pose" after making contact.

A lot of drama.

So true!

I remember seeing guys in kumite retract their hands and chamber them really dramatically after connecting a point (while doing a kiai to impress (the judges, yeah). In some more extreme cases, they also celebrate their point before it was even awarded (they usually go like "yes!" or raise both arms in victory). I see the celebration thing more in taekwondo matches though.

Funny enough, sometimes this drama is counterproductive in kumite, since the judge maybe didn't see the point... so the match keeps going and the guy doesn't defend