Kata and Kumite

[bushido_man96]

Isn't it more likely that kumite and kata are exclusive, but with some overlap? Point sparring is a subset of kumite. Kata is a tool for practice that has some things in common with kumite, but not a substitute for fight experience. IMO, excelling in kata is more like dance, then fighting.

I tend to agree with your point of view.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that excelling forms is more like dance, but more of a focus on the technical skills involved in the Martial Arts in an individual format. I think that sparring is very technical, too, but its different than forms.

[bushido_man96]

But I would have also voted that they need to work hard at both if they want to win both. Being good at one wont mean you can automatically do the other. I do fairly well at sparring but not so well at the forms part of competition. I know plenty of people who are the other way around too.

I agree here as well. Hard work is just as important as being athletically gifted. Time has to be put in on both to get good at both.

[joesteph]

I've not seen any form segments of mine that translate to sparring well at all.

Brian's observation reinforces that forms/kata/hyungs were never meant to be for sparring, but for real-world applications. Tournaments are for sport, sport has rules, and lots of people enjoy that aspect.

I see kata and kumite as overlapping when it comes to real-world applications, but separate should it be for forms competition and tournament sparring. I think honoluludesktop made an interesting observation about when the competition level gets higher.

[honoluludesktop]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that excelling forms is more like dance........

Please don't be offended, In my cynical way, I wrote that kata is like dancing solo, where as kumite is like dancing with a partner. Neither resemble fighting, at least in the manner that I practice it

[JiuJitsuNation]

I'm speaking in the context of tournament sparring. Most bunkai I learned involved striking the neck, takedowns, joint locks and low level kicks. Many of those techniques are illegal in tournaments.

I'm speaking in terms of real-world applications, ps1.

How do katas translate into "real world applications"?

[JiuJitsuNation]

Nevermind I think I found my answer in another thread called I hate forms. lol Actually from you josteph. And I learned something. Still I think there is a faster more practical way to teach.

[bushido_man96]

Nevermind I think I found my answer in another thread called I hate forms. lol Actually from you josteph. And I learned something. Still I think there is a faster more practical way to teach.

And that tends to be the big beef with forms today. And to an extent, it is true. What they end up serving is as a curriculum filler for ranks, and then the applications are still used to justify their existence in the style. In my TKD school, we don't ever learn any applications; the forms are just curriculum fillers.

[JAKEHE3078]

Isn't it more likely that kumite and kata are exclusive, but with some overlap? Point sparring is a subset of kumite. Kata is a tool for practice that has some things in common with kumite, but not a substitute for fight experience. IMO, excelling in kata is more like dance, then fighting.

^ This

[ps1]

Nevermind I think I found my answer in another thread called I hate forms. lol Actually from you josteph. And I learned something. Still I think there is a faster more practical way to teach.

Couldn't agree more. I studied TMAs since 1985 and have learned at least 20 to 30 different forms. Can't say any had a hand in making me more skilled in combat. As Bushido said, they tend to be more of a curriculum filler.

[honoluludesktop]

Hi ps1, While I primarily agree with you, I don't completely discount the value of kata. Dancing is a skill that in some instances can be beneficial to a fighter. Most real fighter's training is "set up" to prevent injury, while getting as close to experiencing the fight as possible, and even champion boxers and mma'ist do a lot of dancing as part of training. Also, in Karate, it's difficult to get a lot of willing partners to trade blows, just to practice. One must also take into the consideration the belief that excessive contact can work against a fighter through the creation of involuntary flinching, etc.

When I kata, I try to move as though it is in reflex to distance, with the feelings I have experienced in kumite. Can't do any more the that.