Kata and Kumite

[ps1]

It's often said that in most competitions, the people who win their Kata (forms) divisions, are usually the same people who win their Kumite (sparring) divisions. I have seen this throughout the years for myself. I'm fortunate enough to have been one of them on several occasions. I have, for many years, read and heard this argument used to defend the usefulness of kata in regard to kumite.

My question to the forum is this:

Do you feel that this happens because there is some connection to skill in kata and skill in kumite?

Do you feel it's because the person doing well in kata is more athletic and that trait translates well into kumite?

Or is it simply because this may be a person that works harder than the average bear to be good at what they do?

Personally, I never felt that one was affecting the other. The techniques used in my kata were never really applicable to the sparring rules. I just worked hard to be good at each division. I trained 7 days a week for years and put my blood and sweat into it.

[honoluludesktop]

Isn't it more likely that kumite and kata are exclusive, but with some overlap? Point sparring is a subset of kumite. Kata is a tool for practice that has some things in common with kumite, but not a substitute for fight experience. IMO, excelling in kata is more like dance, then fighting.

[ps1]

Isn't it more likely that kumite and kata are exclusive, but with some overlap? Point sparring is a subset of kumite. Kata is a tool for practice that has some things in common with kumite, but not a substitute for fight experience. IMO, excelling in kata is more like dance, then fighting.

I tend to agree with your point of view.

[joesteph]

If the person perfoming the kata has no or very little idea of the bunkai, then that's commendable hard work resulting in good performance. Kumite speaks for itself.

If the person performing the kata is aware of, has even practiced, the bunkai, then there is a direct overlap.

I chose hard work for both because all-too-often there isn't adequate teaching and practice of the bunkai permeating the kata. It's an improper separation, but still a separation, to me.

Edit: I'm getting new contacts and glasses! Not catching typos!

Edited August 11, 2010 by joesteph

[honoluludesktop]

Practicing kata by a preconceived bunkai is OK. My personal preference however, is to use "on the mat" experiences to "fill in" its form. In any case, there is no right or wrong way, just ways that fit into an individuals needs. Some of us live in places where justice is decided by the fist. Others live where its best to run and call the police.

The way we look at kata, is subject to the conditions of the place we happen to be, and second to our personal feelings.

[DWx]

I said their athleticism allows them to be good at both. The people I see winning both divisions do tend to be the ones with more natural athleticism. Having athleticism, the strength and flexibility and everything else, will mean that each will be easier for you to do. If there is an overlap between kata and competition kumite, its the physical attributes you need in order to do them both.

But I would have also voted that they need to work hard at both if they want to win both. Being good at one wont mean you can automatically do the other. I do fairly well at sparring but not so well at the forms part of competition. I know plenty of people who are the other way around too.

[ps1]

If the person performing the kata is aware of, has even practiced, the bunkai, then there is a direct overlap.

Do you really think there is? Keep in mind that I'm speaking in the context of tournament sparring. Most bunkai I learned involved striking the neck, takedowns, joint locks and low level kicks. Many of those techniques are illegal in tournaments.

[joesteph]

I'm speaking in the context of tournament sparring. Most bunkai I learned involved striking the neck, takedowns, joint locks and low level kicks. Many of those techniques are illegal in tournaments.

I'm speaking in terms of real-world applications, ps1.

[honoluludesktop]

It's often said that in most competitions, the people who win their Kata (forms) divisions, are usually the same people who win their Kumite (sparring) divisions.

This is typically the case until the competitors move beyond "state tournaments" into "regional", or "national" levels. At that point, success seems to require specialization.

[bushido_man96]

I think it has more to do with overall athleticism lending itself to better levels of performance in both. I've not seen any form segments of mine that translate to sparring well at all. And usually, if you check at most schools, one would see that the sparring training and the forms training differ quite a bit.