Who competes in kata?

[phoenixfire]

joesteph, I agree with you. I like to know the applications of my kata's before I show them off. In my system when we test we have to know the applications of the techniques in our katas. Sometimes after we do the forms to our Sensei's satisfaction we have to go through the form move by move explaining what we are doing.

Not only do I feel it helps me to understand my techniques better, but it helps me to remember the kata when I am first learning it. I also agree with you on feeling genuine when performing a kata. Anybody can learn choreographed moves, but to actually understand the what and why is priceless.

[joesteph]

joesteph, I agree with you. I like to know the applications of my kata's before I show them off. In my system when we test we have to know the applications of the techniques in our katas. Sometimes after we do the forms to our Sensei's satisfaction we have to go through the form move by move explaining what we are doing.

Not only do I feel it helps me to understand my techniques better, but it helps me to remember the kata when I am first learning it. I also agree with you on feeling genuine when performing a kata. Anybody can learn choreographed moves, but to actually understand the what and why is priceless.

Thanks for your post, PhoenixFire! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. And you're very fortunate to have a Sensei who teaches so effectively.

[bushido_man96]

Finally, Karate requires kata. Without kata, it is kick boxing or another art (perhaps like Muay Thai).

I am not really willing to buy into this. I think that Kihon, Kata, and Kumite have all been together for so long that they are always associated with each being equal part and parcel of what is Karate. The same can be said of TKD. However, just because it is done that way, doesn't mean that it can't be done a different way, and still be Karate, or TKD, or whatever.

For example, throws used to be a part of Boxing. However, it has evolved over time, and the throws are gone, and the specialization is in striking with the hands, footwork, head movement/defense, etc. Its still Boxing, though. Is it less than what it once was? It could be argued that it is. This can be said for more styles than Boxing, though, too.

Just my thoughts.

[DWx]

Finally, Karate requires kata. Without kata, it is kick boxing or another art (perhaps like Muay Thai).

I am not really willing to buy into this. I think that Kihon, Kata, and Kumite have all been together for so long that they are always associated with each being equal part and parcel of what is Karate. The same can be said of TKD. However, just because it is done that way, doesn't mean that it can't be done a different way, and still be Karate, or TKD, or whatever.

For example, throws used to be a part of Boxing. However, it has evolved over time, and the throws are gone, and the specialization is in striking with the hands, footwork, head movement/defense, etc. Its still Boxing, though. Is it less than what it once was? It could be argued that it is. This can be said for more styles than Boxing, though, too.

Just my thoughts.

You could argue that but...

How do you define a style if not by its training methods and ways of doing things (kata being one method)?

What makes Karate different from TKD and from Muay Thai and from anything else? They all have roundhouses, punches, whatever so what makes them any different to one another? Especially in the case of TKD and Karate, some styles get very close in resembling each other as far as how they actually do the kicks and punches

Kata I think is one of the things that makes Karate Karate.

(BTW you wouldn't happen to have any links to articles or anything that details the types of throws allowed in boxing? I was under the impression that at least in Ancient Greek boxing wrestling was forbidden and it was a fist-fighting sport.)

[phoenixfire]

To me, Karate, just wouldn't be the same without kata. Bushido, just like most forms of ma is steeped in tradition and history. Of course like all sports it is constantly evolving, but basics are basics. Kata helps with muscle memory so that if you ever actually need to perform a particular technique, there will be as little hesitation as possible if any at all.

In my system we do not believe in changing katas for tournaments to make them more noticeable or flashy for the judges. We simply believe in doing the kata to the best of our ability and trusting the judges will do their job fairly.

[bushido_man96]

Finally, Karate requires kata. Without kata, it is kick boxing or another art (perhaps like Muay Thai).

I am not really willing to buy into this. I think that Kihon, Kata, and Kumite have all been together for so long that they are always associated with each being equal part and parcel of what is Karate. The same can be said of TKD. However, just because it is done that way, doesn't mean that it can't be done a different way, and still be Karate, or TKD, or whatever.

For example, throws used to be a part of Boxing. However, it has evolved over time, and the throws are gone, and the specialization is in striking with the hands, footwork, head movement/defense, etc. Its still Boxing, though. Is it less than what it once was? It could be argued that it is. This can be said for more styles than Boxing, though, too.

Just my thoughts.

You could argue that but...

How do you define a style if not by its training methods and ways of doing things (kata being one method)?

This is a good point, but it doesn't mean that training methods can't change. TKD is usually singled out from other styles for its emphasis on kicking high and a lot, as opposed to its use of forms in training.

Also, think of this: there was a time when math was done without calculators. Calculators make the abacus obsolete. Slide rules don't get used much anymore. Does that mean we aren't still doing math? Nope. We just do it differently. For some reason, the only thing that isn't allowed to be able to change and evolve in its methods is the Martial Arts. Its like sacrilege.

What makes Karate different from TKD and from Muay Thai and from anything else? They all have roundhouses, punches, whatever so what makes them any different to one another? Especially in the case of TKD and Karate, some styles get very close in resembling each other as far as how they actually do the kicks and punches

I think that there is still a different in the fighting methods and styles. Muay Thai is known more for its contact levels than TKD is, but that is limited to competition style for the most part. It doesn't mean that a TKDer can't fight like Muay Thai and vise versa.

(BTW you wouldn't happen to have any links to articles or anything that details the types of throws allowed in boxing? I was under the impression that at least in Ancient Greek boxing wrestling was forbidden and it was a fist-fighting sport.)

Iain Abernethy has done some research on the old Boxing and has referenced the throws in some of his books. As far as Ancient Greece goes, Hellenic Boxing did not allow throws, but Pankration did. There were three fight games in the ancient Olympics, Hellenic Boxing, Hellenic Wrestling (which didn't allow the striking), and the Pankration. However, it was not uncommon for one fighter to be able to compete in all three events...if he could survive them all.

[Dobbersky]

I would love to compete in Kata but the kata we practice wouldn't even get to the judging panel.

Most Kata Competitions have a specified Kata List for each "Style" none is taken into account for Jissen based Karate like Enshin or Ashihara Karate.

Jissen No Kata Sono Ichi would never get a medal but its so effective on the street.

Even My Traditional Kata that I teach are not like others my Stances are for reallity not competitions.

[DWx]

How do you define a style if not by its training methods and ways of doing things (kata being one method)?

This is a good point, but it doesn't mean that training methods can't change. TKD is usually singled out from other styles for its emphasis on kicking high and a lot, as opposed to its use of forms in training.

TBH I think that is a misconception though. Not all TKD is high kicking. Some styles of TKD use no more high kicking than American Kickboxing so what separates the two? Or to look at it another way the various different styles within Karate are known individually for having throws or being knockdown but what ties them together and makes them all Karate?

Also, think of this: there was a time when math was done without calculators. Calculators make the abacus obsolete. Slide rules don't get used much anymore. Does that mean we aren't still doing math? Nope. We just do it differently. For some reason, the only thing that isn't allowed to be able to change and evolve in its methods is the Martial Arts. Its like sacrilege.

I'd say that the calculator is a piece of equipment rather than a training method. How you do arithmetic, geometry, trig etc. haven't changed. Just like nowadays we have gloves and foot pads and foam mats instead of rudimentary leather straps and straw. The methods used don't change. The processes of balancing an equation, (dis)proving a hypothesis etc. remain essentially the same.

What makes Karate different from TKD and from Muay Thai and from anything else? They all have roundhouses, punches, whatever so what makes them any different to one another? Especially in the case of TKD and Karate, some styles get very close in resembling each other as far as how they actually do the kicks and punches

I think that there is still a different in the fighting methods and styles. Muay Thai is known more for its contact levels than TKD is, but that is limited to competition style for the most part. It doesn't mean that a TKDer can't fight like Muay Thai and vise versa.

Does kata not fit into part of the fighting method (or how they learn the fighting method)?

If that TKDer does fight like a Thai boxer what is still making him a TKDer?

(BTW you wouldn't happen to have any links to articles or anything that details the types of throws allowed in boxing? I was under the impression that at least in Ancient Greek boxing wrestling was forbidden and it was a fist-fighting sport.)

Iain Abernethy has done some research on the old Boxing and has referenced the throws in some of his books. As far as Ancient Greece goes, Hellenic Boxing did not allow throws, but Pankration did. There were three fight games in the ancient Olympics, Hellenic Boxing, Hellenic Wrestling (which didn't allow the striking), and the Pankration. However, it was not uncommon for one fighter to be able to compete in all three events...if he could survive them all.

But they were 3 separate disciplines though? Even in Homer's Iliad boxing is described as a fistfighting style and wrestling and pankration were separate. From what I can gather online, throws were considered unsportsmanlike.

[bushido_man96]

In the end, what seperates Boxing, Wrestling, and Pankration, is a rule set more than anything else. Basically, that is what ends up seperating all Martial Arts...its the rule sets they abide by.

If that TKDer does fight like a Thai boxer what is still making him a TKDer?

Because everyone is different. If I never throw a high kick, does that mean I am not TKD? If I choose not to practice forms anymore, but still train on my own what I have learned from TKD, aside from the forms, am I no longer TKD? I don't think so. Its just that I have found a way to do my TKD training without the forms.

Take, for example, what Iain Abernethy does with his training. Whether you like what he does or not, would you say he is not doing Karate? I'd say he still is. He just does it differently. Granted, kata is a BIG part of what he does, but it is the opposite of what I am getting at. He adds a lot more to kata training than what most schools would do as far as applications go, but I think I make my point here. One could take away the kata/forms training, do only the applications, and still accomplish the same goals of the style.

[sensei8]

In the end, what seperates Boxing, Wrestling, and Pankration, is a rule set more than anything else. Basically, that is what ends up seperating all Martial Arts...its the rule sets they abide by.

That's about the most absolute SOLID post I've ever read!! Right on the head of the nail! Let me say it again...SOLID!!