Who competes in kata?

[todome]

There is no question that kata champions are good at what they do, but in a martial art, kumite is the final judge of a champion.

Kumite is more of a game like kata than the truth like battle. Rules equalize.

[ps1]

Basics are basics, whether they are done moving up and down the floor or in a fixed pattern (kata) and they are integral to developing muscles, coordination, balance, movement theory/movement analysis, flexibility, strength, spatial references, distance, visualization, speed of delivery, cardio-vascular endurance, self discipline, and power.

First, I realize I've taken this somewhat out of context. For that I apologize. But I do it becuase, in everything you mentioned here, not one has anything to do with fighting. All of these things can be drilled and done with athletic style drills such as weight lifting, plyometrics, calisthenics, stretching and cardiovascular exercise. So, IMO, they are not valid reasons to practice kata.

Take a football player for example. There's no football kata. Yet, he hits the weight room and goes through rigorous exercise to prepare his body for what will be demanded of it. But the football part he does out on the field in countless hours of drills that require other players.

[honoluludesktop]

It is true that kumite is no substitute for combat. It is also true to anyone who has competes in tournament matches, that the "game" includes bruised egos, broken noses, black eyes, getting kicked in the nuts, etc. While I have never seen anyone dying in a tournament match, I have seen some depart on stretchers.

IMO, criticism of kumite matches come from karateka who do not successfully compete, or from those outside the art. Still, it is important to understand the distinction between budo (kumite) and bujitsu (combat). In contemporary society, combat is restricted to law enforcement, the military, and outlaws. Except for some European countries, karate kumite remains a non-professional activity. When children compete, it is for sport. Adults that compete are less likely to do so as a sport. Most, do not like to lose, and do not like to get hurt; however many are looking for an experience that takes them to the edge of the abyss. Hence the value of rules.

Finally, Karate requires kata. Without kata, it is kick boxing or another art (perhaps like Muay Thai).

[todome]

That's the thing though. I've known more than one regional kumite champion who aside from the advantages of a nose not worth protecting, general bullheadedness and near idiot savant specialization one or two well-timed techniques actually sucked at karate.

That said, I'd give the grand championship to first place kumite second place kata over first place kata second place kumite every time.

[honoluludesktop]

Sure, that happens in some cases. But generally, if you look at the very top, say of the USANKF, or WKF, the best fighters have very good kata skills. Perhaps not at the level of the top kata champions, but certainly better then most.

[honoluludesktop]

.... Karate is not personal preference for how one trains, it is about "combat".....

I am having second thoughts about this. But first, karate is not Karate without Kata, it is something like kick-boxing. Karate can be thought of as an empty form consisting of Kata, and Kumite. While it shares some things in common with self defense, and combat, each of these activities may be considered a separate discipline. When you think of it as a meta-form, then its function is in the eye of the beholder, as long as it consist of kata, and kumite.

[sensei8]

Karate is nothing without Kihon, Kata, and Kumite, imho. These three are dependant with each other, and in that, all three must be in agreement with one another.

Kata and Kihon. Kihon and Kumite. Kumite and Kata. Kata. Kumite. Kihon. These are as effective as a two or one legged chair; unstable! Bear them together: Kata, Kihon, and Kumite; that fruit will nourish, but only if used together.

It's called the three K's, not the two K's or the one K, for a good reason!

[likeke34]

Sure, that happens in some cases. But generally, if you look at the very top, say of the USANKF, or WKF, the best fighters have very good kata skills. Perhaps not at the level of the top kata champions, but certainly better then most.

exactly, i've noticed this as well... in tournaments i've competed in for the past 20yrs the same guys that won kata also won kumite, maybe they'd rotate positions like 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc, but the best at kumite always had extremely clean kata...

i understand at the wkf and usankf level they specialize more, but if you do research, you'll see wkf world champs putting out vids of their katas with the bunkai and such... so i take this as an example that if the wkf champs at kumite take their kata serious enough to actually demonstrate the bunkai, why shouldn't we?

well it's just my opinion on the matter and no matter what i say or think, there are those (even in my own dojo), who rather just do kumite and ignore kata, and vice versa... luckily, as an instructor i can still make them practice both

[sojobo]

Hello,

Given the subject matter, I thought I'd post this for anyone interested.

It was filmed yesterday at the Wado World Cup being held in Nagoya Japan. It is the semi final (the final will be taking place tomorrow).

I'll be honest, both Kata are performed differently to how I do it/teach it, but they are good performances (embu) nonetheless.

Competition causes things to evolve (for competition sake). If you don't have the "edge" on your opponent you will lose.

It's not my bag anymore - but these guys are good, and will probably go on to be the top sensei of tomorrow.

Maybe???

Sojobo

[DWx]

Competition causes things to evolve (for competition sake). If you don't have the "edge" on your opponent you will lose.

That's an interesting observation. I know my instructor and coaches are always saying that you have to assume that your opponent has perfect technical knowledge and skill, so how do you go one better than them on the mat? Little things like defining the kick slightly longer or changing the timing ever so slightly on a movement for aesthetics. Ok its not Karate kata but if you look at videos of our TKD patterns comps over the years you see changes in stance length, timing between each move, little things like that. Probably the biggest thing which changes is the sine wave movement (its a weird TKD thing). It becomes more pronounced in comps as the years go by but now we're getting told to reduce it down again because the extent to which its done has made it redundant as a movement. All this then feeds back into the schools and that's the way the forms start to get taught. In fact tbh I think when you look at forms done by schools that are into competing and compare them to those that aren't, you do see some stylistic differences.