Methodology VS Ideology

[sensei8]

Methodology and/or Ideology. One is preeminent; but that depends on whom one is talking to when it comes to the martial arts.

By definition...[Merriam-Webster Dictionary]

Methodology:

1 : a body of methods, rules, and postulates employed by a discipline : a particular procedure or set of procedures.

 

2 : the analysis of the principles or procedures of inquiry in a particular field.

Ideology:

1 : visionary theorizing.

 

2 a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture, b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture, c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program.

Questions:

1] Which one is your style's organization a proponent of?

2] Which one are you a proponent of?

3] Which one is your martial art based on?

4] Which one is your martial arts dependant on?

5] Are they seperate beliefs?

6] Are they said same beliefs?

7] Are they interchangable?

8] Can ones belief survive without the other?

9] Can one become a prisoner of either belief?

10] Does one belief or another truly matter?

Let our discussion begin!

[bushido_man96]

I think TKD tends to be more of a methodology than an ideology. I prefer methodology over ideology, but it has to be the proper methodology.

[Jeffrey]

1] Which one is your style's organization a proponent of? Methodology

2] Which one are you a proponent of? Both

3] Which one is your martial art based on? Methodology:

4] Which one is your martial arts dependant on? Both only because certain concepts were added/changed at one point in time to suit the particular style we study today.

5] Are they seperate beliefs? YES

6] Are they said same beliefs? Varies from school to school

7] Are they interchangable? Tough Question. Some Head Instructors would have a good discussion about this one. IMO one can not live without the other.

8] Can ones belief survive without the other? Yes to a certain degree. The art would not progress without Ideology and the ability to adapt to changing times and values.

9] Can one become a prisoner of either belief? For sure. You need to grow and without Ideology I don’t think this can happen.

10] Does one belief or another truly matter? Methodology: for sure. Karate is based on tradition and without those set of basic procedures (which can change over time or style differences) you have no base to begin with.

[isshinryu5toforever]

Questions:

1] Which one is your style's organization a proponent of? Based on the definitions, my style is more a proponent of methodology.

2] Which one are you a proponent of? I am a proponent of methodology. I believe that martial arts is a field of study, and therefore does not influence society as a whole in the same way that a group ideology can.

3] Which one is your martial art based on? I'd say that's a question to ask Angi Uezu or one of the Shimabuku brothers. They'd have more a say on what their father-in-law or father respectively had to say about the matter, because they had daily interaction with him. I don't think Tatsuo Shimabuku ever definitively wrote down what his intention was in creating Isshinryu Karate. It has simply been interpreted by his students as they transmitted it to the United States.

4] Which one is your martial arts dependent on? See above.

5] Are they separate beliefs? They are not separate. They rely on each other in certain ways. An ideology will have a method for its transmittance. This is especially true of politics and social thought. A methodology will be influenced by the ideology of the society. This is true when the same martial art is viewed through different cultural lenses. Look at the discussions we have about what a black belt is on this forum. The methodology our different schools have dictate what black belt means. Through our social ideology, we believe that even the first rank of black belt has utmost importance. I would suspect that if we look back on things, most people who transmitted martial arts to the US were in the military at some point. This is especially true of Isshinryu. That being true, they would believe in the strict division of rank. Black belts could be seen as officers, where as the kyu ranks could be considered enlisted men. That has to do with the military ideology in the US. There is a sharp division there.

When you look at belt discussions in Korea, they often revolve around the people at the top. The first rank of black belt here doesn't have that much importance. That is part of the social ideology here, that the people at the top are the most important in the rank structure, and everyone underneath is somewhat interchangeable.

6] Are they said same beliefs? They are not the same beliefs, because someone's methodology can change within the greater whole. Your methodology is influenced by all outside forces, not only the ideology of the country you are in.

7] Are they interchangeable? They are definitely not interchangeable.

8] Can ones belief survive without the other? This is where they are linked. You need a method to your ideology, likewise the social ideology helps shape your method. A simple example here would be corporal punishment in schools. It's frowned upon in the US where we value the individual, but used liberally in most parts of East Asia where conformity rules the day.

9] Can one become a prisoner of either belief? Definitely.

10] Does one belief or another truly matter? It can, especially when two parties don't share similar beliefs. Look at the discussions we all have about what martial arts are for. The teaching methodology our instructor uses will have a distinct influence on our impression of the martial arts as a whole. My instructor focused on hard contact sparring and proving that your techniques worked. Do all Isshinryu sensei do this? No.

[Dobie1979]

First, Sensei I thought that you retired

Now, I want to say great topic

My answers according to my brief Karate experience.

Questions:

1] Which one is your style's organization a proponent of? Methodology. We have basic standards that one moust follow

2] Which one are you a proponent of? Methodology

3] Which one is your martial art based on? Methodology

4] Which one is your martial arts dependant on? Methodology

5] Are they seperate beliefs? yes

6] Are they said same beliefs? Possibly from the outside. In a martial arts sense one would have to experience it so see if it's one or the other.

7] Are they interchangable? In some cases

8] Can ones belief survive without the other? Yes

9] Can one become a prisoner of either belief? I say yes and the outcome is the same.

10] Does one belief or another truly matter? To the person who devotes their life to the cause it does.

[joesteph]

By definition...[Merriam-Webster Dictionary]

Methodology:

1 : a body of methods, rules, and postulates employed by a discipline : a particular procedure or set of procedures.

 

2 : the analysis of the principles or procedures of inquiry in a particular field.

Ideology:

1 : visionary theorizing.

 

2 a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture, b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture, c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program.

After WWII, Hwang Kee first founded the Moo Duk Kwan (Institute of Martial Virtue), then he presented Soo Bahk Do (The Way of the Striking Hand). Together, they form Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan.

What I learned from by SBD teacher was that Soo Bahk Do is considered the art, which would fall under methodology, and Moo Duk Kwan is considered the style, which would fall under ideology.

In everyday speech, though, when someone finds that another person studied a martial art, the usual question seems to be "What style?"

[sensei8]

First, Sensei I thought that you retired

Yeah, but my typing fingers haven't. LOL!

[Rateh]

1] Which one is your style's organization a proponent of?

Ideology. Our organization actually has two distinct halves. The Utah side and the Colorado side. Both have different testing requirements, hold their own black belt testings, and run their classes somewhat differently. We have the same grandmaster, under whom all black belts receive their rank. He does not care what the Utah or Colorado side does so long as they keep their martial arts "pure", if they do that, then changes in the exact testing requirements, or exactly how class is run, doesn't matter to him. He keeps an eye on what we do, and comes to all black belt testings, and teaches seminars, but he doesn't dictate exactly HOW our instructors run things.

My shihan takes somewhat after him in her approach (she is in charge of the Utah half). The individual schools in Utah generally do things the exact same way, but if you can argue for the reason you are doing it differently, she will accept that. Even as an individual black belt, if you can argue for a reason you are doing a technique or form differently, and your argument is sound, then you can do it however you want. One thing that is talked about a LOT though is attitude, how you act, what is expected of you, etc. In some ways, they care more about the kind of person you are, then what you can do, when it comes to giving black belts. Now that doesn't mean they hand black belts out like candy, they put people through some hard paces. But it does mean that who you are as a person can definitely make up for short comings physically. And that's not something that's hidden from us, everyone is told that up front during lessons. Work your butt off, and the amount of heart you put into your test can make up for some problems elsewhere (unless you totally screw up of course).

That's why I think it is more of an ideology. It's about building people through martial arts. Some days half the lesson is a lecture on being a better person. Not some sappy thing, but stuff that really makes you look at yourself and think, almost like a living self help book. My instructors are excellent at mentoring and giving really great lectures that make the whole class leave feeling like they really learned something. I hope to one day be able to do that. Of course most lessons are physical, except when shihan comes, then we always start with a lecture.

[Jay]

Sensei you have caused me a problem. Like what was said people come up and ask me what style do I do? I usually say Jeet Kune Do because its easy to do so. This question is essentially the cause of all the debating in JKD has been going on for years.

1] Which one is your style's organization a proponent of?

The way JKD is taught to me is like a methodology but its not supposed to be, the supposed method without method.

2] Which one are you a proponent of?

Well generally methodolgy but I have tried to branch out as I know it was not intended to be.

3] Which one is your martial art based on?

Im gonna say ideology here

4] Which one is your martial arts dependant on?

I would say for someone to learn it probably methodology but to really understand it ideology

5] Are they seperate beliefs?

I think its an evolution you go through

6] Are they said same beliefs?

Maybe in a zen sense they can't be separated

7] Are they interchangable?

Very much so

8] Can ones belief survive without the other?

Yes

9] Can one become a prisoner of either belief?

I guess anyone remember the liberate yourself from classical karate article, alot of people think the article was bashing karate which it wasn't, it was more of you eat pasta all the time and thats fine but at some point you may want to try something else.

10] Does one belief or another truly matter?

Once progression has taken place no each to their own. But you do have to start somewhere and that has to be a methodology I think.

I tried to answer them as best as I could. But you have to understand that its hard with JKD because of the phillosophical quotes and contradicting them. A simpler answer would be Jeet Kune Do is at once 'this' and 'this'. I hope someone understands my crazyness.

[ps1]

1] Which one is your style's organization a proponent of?

Both. In BJJ the actual practice is highly method based. However, it is the ideology that keeps it expanding and growing.

2] Which one are you a proponent of?

Both. However, it is important to understand the difference between the two. For a concept or ideal to become effective, a method must first be employed and learned.

3] Which one is your martial art based on?

Same as question 1.

4] Which one is your martial arts dependant on?

For self defense, methodology. For growth, Ideology

5] Are they seperate beliefs?

I believe so, yes. It's the difference between Thomas Jefferson discussing how to harness electricity to create light, and actually creating the light bulb. Ideology is talking and theorizing, Methodology is actually performing the action.

6] Are they said same beliefs?

I don't understand this question. If you're asking if Methodology and Ideology are the same. Then no, they are very different.

7] Are they interchangable?

No. Certainly not.

8] Can ones belief survive without the other?

Yes. The survival of only one belief system, however, is what will stagnate a style or system and eventually render it ineffective.

9] Can one become a prisoner of either belief?

Yes. Many have. They do something simply because that's how it was done before them, or because someone simply told them another way was impossible. You must constantly experiment with what works for you. the dojo or academy is a laboratory. Use it as such.

10] Does one belief or another truly matter?

To me, this depends on the goals of the individual. If all they want to do is have a hobby, then no. They can fulfill their goals relatively easily. If they want to learn and understand an art form, then yes; the belief system will matter.