What would you do in this choke situation?

[joesteph]

The point was which person did everyone view themselves as. It's not even debatable . . .

It is debatable. It's an invalid experiment in human perception when dealing with persons who are studying "self-defense." Presenting someone standing over a kneeling person, hands around his neck and squeezing away, is a self-defense situation.

I show my students chokes and joints locks . . .

If not for sport, which means willing participants, then for self-defense. I'm sure you're a decent man who wouldn't encourage his students to attack people with these techniques to prove they don't have a "victim mentality," which you referred to in an earlier post.

[JiuJitsuNation]

I think you understand my point. I didn't offer to anyone who was who. ps1 had a good answer. I do this to the public and the looks on their faces is priceless. And my students learn from it. I am also not suggesting that every single person falls into the category. But! What if you do? Wouldn't you want to realize it for yourself.

I realize that this makes some people defensive because i'm suggesting that if you saw yourself being choked, you have a victim mentality. The vast majority of people do, it's not an insult, it's psychology.

My question was, can you tell me what the majority of my students ask me after I show them a finishing move??

Someone please tell me what they ask me!

[joesteph]

I think you understand my point. I didn't offer to anyone who was who.

Which makes it flawed, given that it's presented to people learning/training in self-defense. If there were no need for self-defense, then we'd be living in Utopia. The people learning self-defense are being realistic about the world, and are correctly envisioning themselves defending themselves against an attacker. It's a sick puppy who thinks of himself as the strangler; that's what's actually being presented, a strangling.

[JiuJitsuNation]

Valid points.

I was also giving a scenario that anyone could easily recognize. So if I was using a proper choke would that make a difference??

No it wouldn't. I could have set it up in their minds any way you could think of and everyone would respond the same. except a few.

I generally do this with newbies. But you are right I did with people doing ma. and the responses are no different.

Now please answer my question Joseph.

[joesteph]

I show my students chokes and joints locks everyday and the first question I am always asked is what???

Would it be how far to go? To control or beyond?

[JiuJitsuNation]

They ask how to get out. Which supports what my point is. Not necessarily the method I used. I am open that it may be flawed. I have been teaching for ten years and whenever I teach a finishing technique, I always ask are there any questions. The question asked the most is how do you get out. Because they see themselves being choked, armbarred, etc. They don't see themselves applying the technique in class much less in a real world application. I have seen this over and over so I try to address it. My answer is always don't be there. "best block, no be there"

They almost instantly acknowledge that they were thinking in those terms.

I am open to ideas of how to address this sensitive subject. NO ONE unless being very honest with themselves will acknowledge the feelings of fear and fear based emotions!

[DWx]

I can understand where Joe is coming from on this one. Maybe if the scenario had someone in it that wasn't the victim being strangled or the person strangling the one kneeling you could test whether people truly had a victim mentality. If there was a third party involved in some way that was neither victim nor the one strangling then maybe you could use this as a test of "victim mentality".

Very few people are going to think straight away that they must be the one doing the strangling. And not because they have a "victim mentality", more that they don't have the mentality of the aggressor; by having the person being strangled kneeling and gasping for breath TBH you could draw better conclusions by looking at the few who do choose to be the one strangling in this situation.

The question asked the most is how do you get out. Because they see themselves being choked, armbarred, etc.

I don't think this is necessarily a symptom of a victim mentality. If you're going to learn a technique, you need to learn all aspects of it. How to counter it, how to defend against it or how your opponent will defend against it. To fully appreciate the mechanics of a technique you need to know where its weaknesses are as well as its actual application.

[Jay]

Very interesting topic JJN

I admit I thought about having the technique done on me rather than using the technique. Im not certain that it shows a victim mentality but more passive thinking.

For me it comes from the whole this guy does this to you so you do this then this. Which is usually taught in most martial arts so you get it into your head that you must start from a defensive position.

[JiuJitsuNation]

I think everyone is really taking to heart the label it's been given. Whatever you want to call it it exists and is not because someone wants to understand the mechanics of things. That is a small percentage of people. I am extremely aware of myself and of my students. I often ask why. And the answer is in case I get caught in it. Either way. Maybe I understand the thoughts and feelings better than I can express them or bring them to the surface for people to face themselves. It works for me in class and when I do demonstrations. For the most part it has just given me a headache to post about it! lol

My experience was holy crap I did see myself being choked and the fact that it was my first thought bothered me. I figured it had to come from some place deeper. A fear based emotion. I even remember the sting of thinking I had this thought process. It made me look at training differently. I adopted much of this from one of my students who is a T.B.I. agent here. He said they teach this very same concept. He said to me"Basically boils down to, I have to go home at night. This is the only outcome." They train themselves to view the situation differently in their minds.

I am also open to the fact I am missing something. But I can't believe after what I have seen that this is wrong and flawed and useless.

[ps1]

They ask how to get out.

Being that my minor in school was psychology, I really like this topic. I must say that you're absolutely right about nearly everything you've mentioned. As I look back on the plethora of seminars and classes I've attended, that is the most commonly asked question for any move. I never connected it in the terms your speaking before. But you're right.