Organizations

[masterphoenix]

Does anyone know of any legitimate organizations for schools/instructors? I have an organization and instructor now, but he is quite advanced in age, and I am sure he will retire soon. At that point, I will be searching for another organization for my own rank advancement and certification in the future.

I am looking to possibly join another organization in the near future as he retires. I am looking for something non-political, and definitely not a diploma mill, but an organization with respectable standards and waiting periods. I'd be open to any suggestions or links of specific organizations.

[DWx]

What style do you do? There are a lot of orgs that are style specific and it would probably better to go with one that was specific or knew a lot about your style..

[masterphoenix]

What style do you do? There are a lot of orgs that are style specific and it would probably better to go with one that was specific or knew a lot about your style..

Sorry, I should have addressed that. I'm not looking for a style specific organization, but rather one that accepts all Kick-Punch styles such as Karate, TKD, etc.

[DWx]

What style do you do? There are a lot of orgs that are style specific and it would probably better to go with one that was specific or knew a lot about your style..

Sorry, I should have addressed that. I'm not looking for a style specific organization, but rather one that accepts all Kick-Punch styles such as Karate, TKD, etc.

Well not that I know much but the orgs that award rank to anybody from any style might not know much about every single style they award rank in. They may be knowledgeable about a handful of them but might not have qualifications in other styles yet they give out the belts. I used to see adds in a TKD mag over here for a guy that had TKD ranking, maybe some style of Karate too but that he would award rank in styles of Kung Fu amongst other things.

IMO its pretty redundant to be awarded a rank in TKD by a Judo guy who knows very little about TKD and vice versa. If it was me I'd want to make sure that whatever org I was joining had at least a couple of high ranking, respected TKD masters. Adds a little legitimacy to the rank.

[masterphoenix]

What style do you do? There are a lot of orgs that are style specific and it would probably better to go with one that was specific or knew a lot about your style..

Sorry, I should have addressed that. I'm not looking for a style specific organization, but rather one that accepts all Kick-Punch styles such as Karate, TKD, etc.

Well not that I know much but the orgs that award rank to anybody from any style might not know much about every single style they award rank in. They may be knowledgeable about a handful of them but might not have qualifications in other styles yet they give out the belts. I used to see adds in a TKD mag over here for a guy that had TKD ranking, maybe some style of Karate too but that he would award rank in styles of Kung Fu amongst other things.

IMO its pretty redundant to be awarded a rank in TKD by a Judo guy who knows very little about TKD and vice versa. If it was me I'd want to make sure that whatever org I was joining had at least a couple of high ranking, respected TKD masters. Adds a little legitimacy to the rank.

I'm not sure how the rank being awarded by a Judo person is redundant, as that really means to do something over and over again to the point that it is meaningless or loses its effect. I guess you'd have to explain what you meant there, unless that was just a momentary type o or word swap.

Everyone has their own opinion about this and I'm not really interested in the anti-organization arguments, which is why I asked the specific question I did, seeking a positive, specific opinion from someone having a positive, specific suggestion. I've heard both sides of the argument for almost 30 years now, and for the nearly 25 years that I've taught about 3,000 people. I've seen very good organizations in Japanese/Korean arts do some very helpful training and promotion of instructors in a variety of styles, and it sometimes works out nicely, depending on how they do it.

The fact is that many people are mixing styles, or find themselves orphaned without an instructor, and looking for some true leadership and ability to advance as their students push their own rank, and this is where the specific kind of organizations I mentioned can be helpful under a person or board with good standards and ethical policies. In a perfect world, we'd have someone directly over us who is high enough ranked to test us in our specific styles, and experienced enough to challenge us to a higher level of personal growth. This isn't a perfect world.

Yes, we've all heard the horror stories of 17 year old applying for 10th dan certification and receiving it because no one asked their age, or people certifying their cat just to prove a point, but this doesn't rule out the decent organizations which have standards preventing this. Our organization has received a number of transfer applications from unethically promoted students who are either keyboard warriors buying certificates online to make themselves sound grand, or legit people who have just fallen prey to practices that they may not realize are unethical. Some orgs have a very convincing spiel about why what they do is legitimate.

The "Dragon Kenpo" program in which they mailed you a videotape along with a belt certificate without ever even seeing your technique (up to 3rd degree black belt - why they stopped there I have no idea) spawned a whole generation of people who learned from video and never once had anyone correct them or give feedback on their attitudes. Yet, I will have to say, when I read his spiel about why this was legitimate, it was very convincing, and I had twenty years in martial arts by that time. What he said made a lot of sense. His criticisms of traditional martial arts testing made a lot of sense - his solution didn't, and it was unethical, at least in my hopefully humble opinion.

There is a middle ground where people with mixed styles or without an instructor can associate with like minded, quality, legitimate high ranks for mutual benefit, and this is what I am now seeking. It may take years to find. I am not in a hurry, as my next rank (7th dan) would be years away, anyway. In the meantime, I am teaching and promoting black belts and meeting my instructor's expectations as I should be. When he retires, I will need a new relationship for my own growth.

I am seeking specific suggestions about organizations that accept various kick-punch type styles with good quality standards. One does have to sift through a lot of diploma mills, but there are good organizations out there providing services for kick-punch styles.

I totally agree with what you are saying, and I will be very cautious, and perhaps downright sketpical about organizations claiming to service any style, unless they are having representatives from that style do the evaluations. As I've mentioned here on the board, my instructor is nearing the age of retirement, and the nature of our style being a mixture of traditional styles precludes me from seeking a traditional instructor in a traditional style.

I thank you so much for taking the time to lend your advice. I am honored that you took time out of your day to type your advice, and I agree with most of what you said under different circumstances than mine. I am just hoping to stick to the original question at hand, and overcome what will be a future challenge for myself and my schools. I will need to establish a new relationship for oversight of my advancement, advice and feedback, in the same way that I expect my students to remain subjected to mine for their own advancement.

[isshinryu5toforever]

There's not a single school close to you that practices the same martial art? If that's the case, I'd talk to your instructor about who his teacher is. It would be difficult to impossible to get another instructor of a style that is not your own to recognize your current rank and promote you in the future.

It might help us help you if you could tell us what style you do and where yo do it. I'm not really sure if there are any blanket organizations in the US for all traditional martial arts. At least none that are reputable.

[masterphoenix]

What style do you do? There are a lot of orgs that are style specific and it would probably better to go with one that was specific or knew a lot about your style..

If I had answered this question more specifically, you might have understood my request better, sorry for the failure.

I do teach Tae Kwon Do (6th dan legitimately, in person, with proper waiting periods, ITF style - 2nd dan in person with proper waiting periods WTF style, earned in a WTF school), but it is a sideline for me, and generally something I do mostly for kids. From 12 and up, I teach my own system, which is a mixture mostly of the Karate, TKD, Hapkido, Aikido and Jeet Kune Do, and some Pai Lum Kung Fu (or Pai Te Lum as it was later renamed) that I have studied, with a little Brazilian Jiu Jitsu thrown in. (These days you have to have that, all the cool kids are doing it! Seriously, we do very little of that because I feel being wrapped up with an opponent as a first option is a little short sighted, because multiple attacker situations preclude this - if you're wrapped up, their cousin is free to stomp you in the head or beat you with a pipe. So we try to focus on stand up, but when it goes to the ground, few people would deny BJJ is one of the best things to know, so that's a bolt on program for us, and not a focus.

I blended all this together and worked to improve it since 1995. Essentially it's a street realistic (our attacks constantly vary, and we address abduction situations, attacks in a restaurant, potential rape, anything realistic, my students are always creating new scenarios) MMA with some tradition remaining (A few forms that I created myself which blend TKD, Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Tang Soo Do, and Kung Fu). I like the idea of mixing; I do not like the idea of losing the structured character building, respect and discipline that goes with a properly administrated rank system.

This system has worked well for me, and although we only hit a tournament or two a year, we will always come back with several 1st and 2nd places in advanced divisions in the moderately sized tournaments we go to. In fact, the rated competitors have complained that we come once a year and take points they need for their ratings, even though these are open tournaments. Tournament competition is not a big focus for us, but it gives us some feedback and social consensus proves our style to be a highly respectable one, as we win more than we lose, and at least once a year some instructor will come over to inquire about our system and say they love it, but haven't seen anything like it. Describing it to someone familiar with martial arts but not familiar with me, I'd say the forms look like Kuk Sul Won forms but with a little more hard Karate movements than KSW. My instructor has a mixed system of his own which has proven very legitimate since the 70's, and also runs along the same lines, this is why I clicked with him so well. He allows me to run my style the way I want, and evaluates me and my students based on our performance, which is so closely related to the kind of kick-punch system he runs, which is also very solid. He has very large tournaments, and hundreds of his students have branched out nationwide to teach his system.

Anyway, that's the long answer, and maybe more than you hoped to learn :0. In order to legitimately evaluate and understand what I do, an org would probably need a panel with various traditionalists, or an older, high ranking leader well-experienced with various styles (probably Karate/Tae Kwon Do experience would get close). I'm not a jack of all trades, but I have earned legit ranking in several styles directly under instructors (not internet) and I use all this to polish my own system to my preferences and priorities.

My run with my current instructor since 1993 has been a wonderful and productive one. He has taught me about martial arts, teaching, and teaching as a source of income. He has corrected me when my opinions of martial art or teaching were poorly thought out, and provided guidance both in technical and mental arenas. That relationship is going to be hard to beat, but at 6th dan, I am quite capable of mostly running my own show. For the reasons I already expressed, I just know that all of us need advice, feedback and evaluation, and I will be seeking at least a respectable route to that, even if it does not provide quite the same sense of sentiment and connectivity that my current relationship has provided.

He is about to be 10th dan with 55+ years of experience, and I am 6th with almost 25 years teaching experience, so I am definitely not looking to join under any 40 year old 10th dans.

[isshinryu5toforever]

Ok, creating your own style is a completely different animal. There may never be someone to truly grant you rank above what you currently have. You would probably get more out of consulting with other martial artists at this point. You could continue to gain rank int he many styles you just named under legitimate teachers, but it would be impossible for any one of them to legitimize your rank in the system you've created. As far as I know, there is no organization for this kind of thing.

If you could get all the masters in the US to agree, you could create something like the Japanese Karate Federation, which holds the right to confirm a person's rank in one of the Traditional Japanese Karate recognized by their organization, but I think you'd have better luck trying to fly to the moon by flapping your arms haha.

I'd say what you really have is a true practice of the Jeet Kune Do philosophy. You have experience in many different martial arts, and you make what they do work for you. That's amazing, and something I think a lot of people would like to do, but finding someone to give you rank that means something will be extremely difficult.

[masterphoenix]

Ok, creating your own style is a completely different animal. There may never be someone to truly grant you rank above what you currently have. You would probably get more out of consulting with other martial artists at this point. You could continue to gain rank int he many styles you just named under legitimate teachers, but it would be impossible for any one of them to legitimize your rank in the system you've created. As far as I know, there is no organization for this kind of thing.

If you could get all the masters in the US to agree, you could create something like the Japanese Karate Federation, which holds the right to confirm a person's rank in one of the Traditional Japanese Karate recognized by their organization, but I think you'd have better luck trying to fly to the moon by flapping your arms haha.

I'd say what you really have is a true practice of the Jeet Kune Do philosophy. You have experience in many different martial arts, and you make what they do work for you. That's amazing, and something I think a lot of people would like to do, but finding someone to give you rank that means something will be extremely difficult.

I'd make the point here that what is possible or impossible exists only in our minds. EVERY style is made up, and each of them that exists today as a "traditional" style can be traced back to beginnings in other traditional styles. In each of them that I have ever studied or learned about, and every style in every magazine I've ever seen, there is a history which traces back to another art, or multiple arts. Someone comes along, practices that art, tweaks some things, or blends multiple arts together, and bam, you've got a new tradition. To claim that anything is really pure or that any possibilities are limited would be inconsiderate of the entire history of the arts. We understand purity to be our experience in a single art, but generally, we tend to forget that all arts are made up, and all rank is made up. Therefore, there really are no limits to what is possible. Bruce Tegner seems keenly aware of this in his early 1980's books where he specifically tells people that a coach or person with athletic background could certain supervise or teach techniques from the book and award belts using preferable standards, but with the understanding that these belts have significance only within that group, and may not carry any clout or respect to other people. It is important to realize that it's all made up, and all ranks, standards and styles have drawn from each other, and began in someone's mind. The compilation and reformation that is my style just happened to begin with me, at this point in the stream of time based on what I have experienced, liked and imagined to be helpful. In that, it is no different than any other style. It is complicated, I grant you that. Easier to be an MMA with no rank, or a traditional style, as far as seeking affiliation and support. But these are not my ways.

As for getting all masters to agree on something, that wasn't even done by the JKA themselves, nor by anyone, nor is it necessary to form an org. I could form an org myself just by saying I'm doing so. The fact that the JKA has a great deal of support and unity only represents the extent to which people found them helpful, supported them and joined for unity, nothing wrong with that. But again, whatever exists is a product of our imagination and preferences anyway, so it's not necessary to feel (nor practical as you suggested) that everyone must like or prefer what you do. You simply need to find like minded, qualified and sincere people you can contribute to, and who improve your own journey in some way. Those people are out there, and helping other people. I've seen it happen, and I've experienced it with a few organizations in the past.

In my case, very little that is contained my art was actually created by me, it's more a compilation. There are plenty of organizations out there who deal with mixed styles, plenty. Simple internet searches such as "black belt testing membership all styles" or "mixed martial arts certification black belt" will reveal tons, although you'll have to sift through the hits to find the orgs accepting and testing people of various styles.

The problem, and why I was seeking help on the board here is the quality. 99% of the orgs I've researched are ran by people whose own paperwork and quality is very questionable, whose practices are unethical for me personally, or who are obviously selling rank. Most won't even reveal any history about the person running the org or tell you where he got his rank.

It is a complicated situation and one not easily resolved, which is why I asked for help. As you suggested, one strong possibility is to keep pursuing one of the traditional styles in which I am ranked and to use the highest rank as my rank in my own system. I am definitely not one to call myself a 10th dan because I started a different style, or look for someone to write me a 10th dan certificate.

The other possibility, and the one I prefer, is to find people already dealing with this kind of situation or teaching mixed styles themselves, and to establish a relationship for mutual benefit. I contribute and support their efforts, and they gain experience in dealing with higher ranks for their own rank/knowledge. Some organizations make it work well. Finding one I like that meets my standards is the problem. I may be forced to look for instructors who don't actually have associations, but would consider taking me on in order to find something workable. I guess we will see how it unfolds.

Thanks for taking your time to chip in on the conversation.

[DWx]

I didn't mean to cause any offense, masterphoenix, was just trying to illustrate that if you did a specific style and wanted to grade in it and be guided in it you'd probably be better off under people who also knew what you were doing. So if you did an Okinawan Karate style, no point in us recommending the Kukkiwon.

You do seem to have a lot of experience and since what you teach is your own mix, you could just award the rankings yourself?