A different "rules" question

[joesteph]

There's a rules question I have under another heading because of the damage it can do. This is one that really does refer to what's permitted in a sport situation.

Whether sparring non-contact or controlled contact, the rule I met was no shots to the opponent's back. When I could get to my opponent's back, usually at an angle to it, I'd have my hand up as though I were going to give him a shove, but non-contact has no touching anyway, and controlled contact would call it a lack of control if I did put my hand on his back, even without a shove.

When I did non-contact, a dojang friend liked to do a spinning back kick, telegraphed it each time, I'd move forward to body jam it, and I'd usually have my hand up in the right position. When I did controlled contact, I could body jam (didn't always work well) and have my hand up, but they were too slick for me to be in that ideal position. I even had to watch that I didn't anxiously grab instead of just have my hand up in shove position.

Has anyone who's done full contact done that shove? Has anyone been permitted to spar controlled contact with that shove allowed?

To add: In the August issue of Black Belt magazine, there's an article by Rick Tew, "The Art of the Jam." I referred to it under Strategies and Tactics, but that was facing the opponent. On p. 84, there are photos with the article of the defender against a spinning back kick seizing the attacker at his back as he's spinning and, instead of shoving him, turning so that the kicker spins along with his own spinning back kick.

Has anyone who's done full contact done that spin? Has anyone been permitted to spar controlled contact with that spin-the-opponent allowed? Is it feasible or just "for demonstration purposes only"?

[isshinryu5toforever]

I'm not quite clear on what you're asking. Are you asking if strikes to the back are permitted in any sport martial arts competition? What kind of "shove" are we talking about here? As far as I'm concerned, if we're talking about kicks and punches, there shouldn't really be any shoving. Checks and jamming are something entirely different.

[joesteph]

Not to punch or kick, Isshinryu, but to push--hard--to topple your opponent. But it's not being in an actual altercation; it's full or controlled contact sparring.

It's like saying you can do a takedown, but instead of facing the opponent, it's from slipping behind him as much as possible. If he's on one leg while kicking, he's going to fall if he's pushed/shoved from the front. I'm asking about a hard push (shove) from behind, or seizing him at his back (such as grabbing him at his shoulders or even his gi/dobok) and spinning him down with his own spinning back kick.

Permitted in some sparring? Never permitted? Something a mixed martial artist does--or doesn't--do? Too much like a street fight and so not permitted?

[ps1]

In every competition I've been in strikes to the back were legal. Direct contact to the spine or back of the neck were not allowed.

[isshinryu5toforever]

A takedown of the type you're discussing would only be allowed in grappling competitions or in MMA. In a normal, controlled contact sparring tournament, you'd probably get a warning for contact. My point was, if you're in a striking tournament, why would you be thinking about shoving someone?

[joesteph]

My point was, if you're in a striking tournament, why would you be thinking about shoving someone?

When I sparred at Universal Warrior (it's independent, based a lot on Isshinryu), takedowns were permitted, even though you were doing a mostly striking art. It was actually done by more advanced kyu students, and when I saw it done, it was from the front, much like O Soto Gari. I think it was only permitted in the dojo, though.

[isshinryu5toforever]

I'd say your observation is correct, that it was more of an in-dojo only thing. Sport competitions generally allow front leg sweeps, but you have to score on the person as they fall or within a second of them hitting the ground. They don't allow full throws though.