Correct Terminology

[Rateh]

I often find myself, and others that I speak with, adding english endings to non-english words. For example adding an "s" to the end of a korean or japanese word to make it plural. I even add "ing" to words to make them verbs, like "kiahing". So I would like to ask....

Do you think this trend is common in martial arts schools? How common?

Is it inappropriate to use english endings? Should we learn the Japanese/Korean/Chinese ones?

Just what ARE the correct endings?

[isshinryu5toforever]

Some time ago, I wrote a big thing about proper terminology in the MA's, but it was more geared toward referring to MA's from different places using the correct terminology, this is an entirely different animal.

I would actually say that's it's ok to conjugate things the way you are currently. We do it in my school, they do it in most schools I've seen, and even a lot of the Korean coaches I know do it in the US.

As far as conjugating is concerned, that's difficult haha. It would take a lot of explaining, and a little more time than I have at this very moment. Maybe tonight when I have a little time, I'll try to cover some Korean. I don't know Japanese, but I'm sure someone does. Let me know which terms you'd really like conjugated, because it can be different depending on the word.

[ps1]

It's all too common. It comes from our desire to speak using the proper terms, without the follow through of actually learning to do it properly. Personally, I think it's rude to do. Especially if you're talking to someone who has actually taken the time to learn everything properly. Also common is completely mispronouncing the words. I suggest to anyone who is going to use the native terminology to learn how to properly use it. Otherwise, just speak in your own language.

[Lupin1]

Well, my school tends to use the English words for most things, but I really don't see the problem with conjagating things differently. Part of globalization is that words from some languages make it into others, where they usually get butchered or changed. Anyone who's read Japanese attempts at English on everyting from road signs to lunch boxes knows that they do it to our language, too. I give you exhibit A: http://www.engrish.com/ Even when I went to Germany, whose language is fairly similar linguistically to English, I saw a lot of English words taken in and twisted and then used very commonly by the Germans, most of whom have studied English since they were five or six. It's just part of this more global community, in my opinion.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Lupin1

[isshinryu5toforever]

In this case, I just don't think proper pronunciation is always practical. There are some sounds in various languages Mandarin, Japanese, Korean, that are just plain difficult for non-native speakers to say. Patrick, I'm going to quickly use a non-English character to make a point, the Korean consonant vowel combination 응 is romanized eung, but that's not nearly how you say it. There is also a significant difference in the way you say certain vowel and consonant sounds, but some are romanized in a similar way (long o vs short eo would be a good example of this). Unless you have studied the language, there will always be pronunciation problems. Also, no matter where you go, no matter what language the country you are in speaks, in martial arts like Judo (outside Korea), the same terminology is used everywhere, even if the accent is bad.

[sensei8]

I often find myself, and others that I speak with, adding english endings to non-english words. For example adding an "s" to the end of a korean or japanese word to make it plural. I even add "ing" to words to make them verbs, like "kiahing". So I would like to ask....

Do you think this trend is common in martial arts schools?

Yes I do!

How common?

More than we might be willing to admit to ourselves as well as others.

Is it inappropriate to use english endings?

Imho, not only is it inappropriate, but, it makes us look/appear pretty silly. But, I suppose it's no different than someone who speaks Spanglish. Possibly we're on the cusp of another new language; Japlish. Still, nobody outside the confined walls of our dojo will ever know!

Should we learn the Japanese/Korean/Chinese ones?

Only if one wants to for whatever the reason(s) may or may not be. However, if one is going to be conversing to them in their native tongue, then one must learn the rules involved in speaking to them in their native tongue. Even then, the Japanese have a name for non-Japanese who can speak and understand the language: hen gaijin , or "crazy foreigners."

Just what ARE the correct endings?

The answer to this question isn't that simple. Japanese, for example, is a language that's to itself and of itself. Furthermore, the japanese language to us can appear to be as far away as the east is from the west; worlds apart. Conjugated useages in the japanese language can be very difficult to learn and even more difficult to understand. In Japanese, conjugations can themselves be conjugated, and the results can be conjugated again, and so one irregularity can propagate into many obscure compound conjugations, but basically these verbs only have one irregular “base” conjugation each.

Japlish might catch on one day, but then again, it might not. If it does, we of the dojo/dojang class might be the only ones who will ever understand it.

[DWx]

Good post isshinryu5toforever. I agree that the correct pronunciation, whilst it should be attempted, is going to be hard for non-Japanese/Korean/Chinese etc. speakers. The patterns and sounds found in these languages are hard for native Romance and Germanic speakers to pick up and vice versa. I have a number of friends who are native Chinese speakers and they really struggle with the concept of plural and make mistakes all the time. Certain words are near impossible for them to pronounce too no matter how hard you tried to correct them. And they've all been through the English school system since they were like 10. It just can't be helped.

Personally I try to be correct most of the time but I do find myself slipping and adding the -ings and even -ed to get the tense "right" in an effort to explain stuff properly. But if I know the Korean versions I make sure I use them instead.

[isshinryu5toforever]

@ DWx thank you

@ Sensei8 Japanglish, Chinglich, and Konglish are already semi-real languages haha. My variety of friends use one or the other on a near daily basis to communicate with their grandparents who speak zero English. They're 2nd generation US citizens who don't speak as much of their grandparents' native language as they "should." I studied Korean in university after zero experience with it growing up, and I've lived in Korea for the last two years, so my Korean is actually better than a lot of theirs. If anything, the propagation of these mixes of language are brought on more by the later generations of their respective ethnic groups growing up in the US with little link to their country of origin than to the martial arts. A prime example of this is, "I have to visit my halmoni this weekend, because of hyo." It's an easy way for them to say, "I have to visit my grandmother this weekend, because of Confucian filial responsibility."

Being 100% correct is always better, but we are here to teach the martial arts, not a language class. If I were to say: kihap teul keunsoriro pooreorah! Everyone would look at me, and let out a collective, "Huh?" That's why I let things like adding ~ing or ~s to words slide, because if I didn't it would drive me nuts.

[sensei8]

@ Sensei8 Japanglish, Chinglich, and Konglish are already semi-real languages haha.

Interesting, and it truly doesn't surprise me. See what I learn when I crawl out of the rock I've been under all these years.

[BDPulver]

LOL, this is too true. I have been told as well this is an american trait too.

A girl I dated once was from england and I was joking with her about my english. She said I dont speak english I speak american which tends to use slang, slurs and mispurnaciation (see I cant spell) of words.

After a while I started to see this and found to be our society. I've even heard news anchors create new words or use words that you thought never would be used.