Grinding elbows in Judo, BJJ, and grappling in general?

[Praesul]

Just yesterday, after we were done practicing ne-waza at my Judo club, my sensei came up to talk to me.

He was wondering why I always used my elbows to grind into people, and that I should stop doing it because it's dirty.

Now, that day, I thought I was doing a fantastic job. I managed to submit one of the higher ranked people that I've wanted to submit for a while (it's been a goal of mine, I'm sure he went easy on me, though). I managed to buck off someone 100 pounds heavier than me, and I event went with someone almost 200 pounds heavier than me! (I didn't submit him, but I was so close. )

It was a bit discouraging to hear, after all that. I went home and looked up whether or not using your elbows was cheating, and from what I've seen, it's not. Some people see it as cheating, or unsportsmanlike, though.

Now, the way I use the elbows is I'll dig them into someone's legs when I'm in their guard. It's the first method I ever learned on escaping someone's guard, and it's one of my favorites.

I'm a very skinny guy, and I like to use these types of things to my advantage. People bigger than me constantly put all their weight on me to keep me down, and nobody looks down on that. How come they're allowed to use their weight to their advantage, but when I use my elbows it's unsportsmanlike, or cheating? (I'll point my elbows up at people when they try putting all their weight on me, so my elbows end up digging into their collarbone. They'll usually stop after that)

And it's not like it has it's disadvantages. I'm constantly getting caught in leg triangles and armbars (I manage to escape most of the time, though). I could totally understand if people wanted me to stop because they consider it a bad technique to use (too many cons, not enough pros?)

Hell, lots of people there dig their knuckles in, why are elbows any different?

Anyways, sorry for the lengthy post...again. I'd just like people's opinions, and I'd like to be thorough so most questions are answered right away.

[ps1]

Question 1: From which position(s) were you grinding your elbows?

Observation 1: Grinding of elbows is usually done by novices in order to make up for lack of proper technique or strategy. ie: you're in side control and want the opponent to move his arm. You grind an elbow into his face to get him to push your arm off...thus exposing his arm.

Observation 2: Knuckle grinding is also used in the same way and also by novices. You shouldn't use that as a measuring stick.

Observation 3: Putting their weight down on you is the proper way to hold someone down. It's effective and frees up their arms for attacks. Learn proper defenses to escape bad positions. If someone is in a position where they can put their weight on you...you made the mistake of letting them get there. Learn to enter your defense earlier.

Observation 4: By laying on your back, putting your elbows in the air, you're wasting time that could be better used working back to your guard or reversing your position.

Here's a link to a good escape from side control...among other techniques:

It should be pointed out that my perspective is from BJJ. From that perspective, even Judo Black Belts (1st degree) tend to be novices in terms of ground grappling (ne waza). When you figure they've trained about 1 hour of ne waza per week for three to 5 year in comparison to the 3 to 4 hours per week of throwing they've done for the same amount of time. That's equal to about 7 or 8 months of BJJ training. That's all! Keep in mind...I'm talking ground work here...not including the throwing. A BJJ practitioner isn't considered as "knowing the art" until high purple or brown belt; which represents 6-8 years of training in the art.

My point is that it takes alot of time to get good at the ground. The more you train it...the better you will get. But don't stunt your growth by abandoning technique. I'm 215lbs and 150lbs guys escape from me regularly...but not by waiting. They learn to flow from one move to another. So should you...that's what you're instructor is trying to tell you. You're not cheating the game...you're only cheating yourself.

Good luck and keep training hard.

[JiuJitsuNation]

Agreed Ps1. Also what to some seems to be an elbow being used is not. I am referring to the teaching aspect. Using the elbows (against experienced people) to open the guard is not an effective method. In mount, side control or guard we have a technique, I believe, will be an effective replacement for the elbow. It's called "what time is it". You simply place your hand on the shoulder as a grip (or grab material) and your forearm goes across the throat. Basically choking the person but not effective as a finish. You apply pressure to the neck, the choke gets them to respond and you can transition. It's called what time is it because the motion of the arm under the chin is much like when you bring your arm up to check your watch.

Hope that makes sense!

[MMA_Jim]

To reiterate what has been said:

Grinding your elbows into an experienced persons thighs will yield absolutely no positive results. Getting caught in triangles is probably a direct result of this.

Its not illegal but is considered "rude." You actually want to take care of your partner when you train with them. If you're continuously rude things to your opponent, they're not going to want to train with you, and you'll be unable to get any better =)

[jsteczko]

Well, I'm not training Judo so my answer may be not the right one...

I wouldn't care if something was "rude". There is no such thing as rude. If the other person says "it hurts".. well it's not my problem. The most important thing is to escape his guard etc. I'm not very experienced in BJJ so my point of view is a little bit different.

If this hurts your partner, isn't it something positive then? Because your partner can then train how to manage pain. When you get more experienced and find something better, then you can stop grinding your elbows.

I don't see anything wrong with using elbows.

[tallgeese]

John, I have to disagree with the idea of continuing to grind with the elbows, anywhere, in training.

First up, in JJ circles, it's kind of a disrespectful thing to do. It's usually associated with a lack of experience or composure. And as some one said, pretty soon no one will want to be rolling with you.

Your goal is to get better with technique, not prove who can crank harder with an elbow. And, also as stated before, if the bad guy has any esperience it will do no good.

[MMA_Jim]

Well, I'm not training Judo so my answer may be not the right one...

I wouldn't care if something was "rude". There is no such thing as rude. If the other person says "it hurts".. well it's not my problem. The most important thing is to escape his guard etc. I'm not very experienced in BJJ so my point of view is a little bit different.

If this hurts your partner, isn't it something positive then? Because your partner can then train how to manage pain. When you get more experienced and find something better, then you can stop grinding your elbows.

I don't see anything wrong with using elbows.

Hey is sounds great, and I wouldnt complain too much- I'd agree except the technique doesnt work well against any but completel beginners. The problem is this:

"

If this hurts your partner, isn't it something positive then? Because your partner can then train how to manage pain. "

Tell your students that and see how many still stick around....

[ps1]

If this hurts your partner, isn't it something positive then? Because your partner can then train how to manage pain.

You're making the same assumption that many people with limited grappling experience make. You're assuming that causing pain is always a good thing. The problem is that pain tolerances vary greatly from person to person. Leverage and physics do not, it's universal. Therefore you're better off using proper technique and body mechanics to achieve your goals. Another downside of pain is that it tends to stimulate the release of endorphins that will cause your opponent's pain tolerance, strength, and aggression to increase. If you were having a tough time before, you just made it tougher.

When you get more experienced and find something better, then you can stop grinding your elbows.

I think you'll look back on this statement and realize it's kinda silly. Let's take this out of the martial arts arena and use the statement on something we all know. Say...painting. If I want to paint a house, I should buy a brush. It's the right tool. If I choose to use a hammer, I will find that my house isn't painted well...and it's just alot harder to do. This is the same thing. The elbows are the wrong tool. Continuing to use them, when a better tool exists...is silly and makes your jiujitsu sloppy and useless.

I choose to add something else about being rude. There certainly is such a thing. While that's not the only reason not to use the elbows...it is, yet, another reason. Remember that jiujitsu is the art of how to efficiently solve problems. I believe you'll find that rudeness rarely solves any problem.

[grav3h3art]

we are allowed to use our elbows in our dojo. I like to use my two elbows and press the thighs to break the rubber guard but you have to be quick in moving your head coz you might get cought in a double armbar or triangle choke. There are other ways of breaking the rubber guard that i know but i like sticking to whats comfortable to me.

We dont do BJJ but we incorporate Jujitsu in our Ne-wasa and its always cool to learn new techniques. By the way....grinding elbows on your neck or face aint cool D:

[bushido_man96]

We are taught to grind the elbows in the DT sessions that I've had for LEO training. But, for the most part, LEOs aren't interested in ettiquette, they are interested in surviving and going home at the end of the shift, and not all of them have the time to dedicate to a weekly BJJ session.

However, on the other hand, I do see what the more experienced hands here are saying about learning technique instead, and how the elbow grinding won't work on a moderatly skilled opponent. So, good to know the elbows, but also good to train without using them. After all, I don't think "elbow grinding" is going to be a skill that diminishes terribly if you don't use it often.