Kata done naturally...(boxing guard, etc.)

[todome]

Kata done properly IS kata done naturally.

[panamaican]

Hi panamerican,

Unfortunately I have a problem with this - in much the same way as I have with the stuff promoted by so called "Bunkai Masters" that seem to get lapped up by people who are desperate to plug holes in their kata knowledge.

You say that Kata should not be viewed as indelible - and to an extent I agree with that. In Japanese kata based arts they say that kata should not become "Igata" - which is a kind of plant pot mould, but rather it should remain "Ikita" which means living kata, but to an extent I think that we here in the west struggle to delineate between what is accepted as live kata and what is no longer the kata you were doing in the first place.

To understand Kata and how it works within any kata based system (be that martial arts or flower arranging) you must understand and importantly have worked through the process of “Shu-ha-ri.

To Embrace the Kata

To Diverge from the Kata

To Discard the Kata.

Nowhere does it mention to "Modify the kata".

The adaptations you talk about are part of the process of training as a whole - and a sign that you have / are learning about alternative methods as a result.

It seems to me you are referring to what my group would say were "Ohyo" or transitional techniques which form a bridge between kata and Kumite and that’s great, but I would urge you not to lose site of the Kata as it is meant to be done.

Overtime it will continue to unlock a number of questions relating to technique.

I mean no disrespect by this, but if you want to learn kickboxing go to a kickboxing gym. If however you want to learn a kata based art, practice the kata the correct way - don't try and turn it into kickboxing just because (at where you are at the moment) kickboxing seems to make more sense to you.

Chitsu

How do you define "To diverge from the kata" prior to discarding it?

And while I respect your opinion, I think it ignores the history of kata themselves. Kata have been modified many times throughout history, new kata have been created and old ones discarded. Even in Funikoshi's Karate-Kyohan, Funikoshi's kata are modified between the first and later editions. Modification of kata is part and parcel of karate's history.

Perhaps we look at karate differently. To me, karate is kata-based as a teaching method. The movements of the kata train our body to perform those same movements at a moments notice. The isolation is for us to train our minds for calm and to hone the focus to apply these skills against another person with absolute conviction. We learn kata as a tool by which we improve these skills, we do not learn these skills as a tool by which to improve kata.

Your disdain for kickboxing is understandable but to equate all explorations of the martial aspects of karate with kickboxing seems to ignore why karate exists in the first place. Karate was not created so that we could compare how perfectly in uniform we repeat the steps of 26 kata but to prepare us mentally and physically for the unexpected acts of violence that sometimes intrude into our lives. Separating kata from that goal defeats the purpose of training it in the first place.

I didn't mean to turn this into a philosophical debate but my karate and my kata are aimed at keeping me safe regardless of any awards I may or may not win for my kata performance. And I still practice my kata in their original manner 85% of the time both at home and in the dojo.

[Dobbersky]

Panamaican-san,

I would recommend leaving the Pinans/Heians as they are, These kata are for Goshin purposes not Jissen purposes. the kata are if you look at them "grappling kata" not "combat kata". Take a look at Iain Abernethy's view on kata or the Kissaki version of Shotokan's version headed by Shihan Morris this will make you see the kata should not be "amended" too much.

Concentrate on formulating other "kata" for the purpose of natural fighting or take up, if you can, either Ashihara or Enshin Karate as their Kata IS formulated to be done in a boxing stance etc.

OSU

[tallgeese]

"but to prepare us mentally and physically for the unexpected acts of violence that sometimes intrude into our lives"

That, in it's purest form, it the idea of ma in general. However, kata is one of the worst tools for actually preparing one's self for this goal. Managment of the adrenal dump, heart rate control under extreme duress, decision making based on multiple incoming variables from an unpredictable opponant, all of these are key skills in responding to this violence. However, they are better developed by other, more modern stair stepped methods. IMO.

So again, we need to look at WHY we're doing the arts. That's going to determine what methods we're using. If prepping for combat is our goal, then we can talk about modifiying tools or using differnt one siwht some authority. If perfection of a system is our goal, then we need to talk about leaving things the same.

Personally, I do either depending on what I'm doing. For my background arts, the kempos and shoot and mma, I'm always looking at maximizing combat efficiency. So I'll havppily change things, experiment, ect.

However, while training BJJ, I'm most interested in learning the art of it. So I'm always in gi and training with a highly technical game in mind. I've done the ground n pound and it's not where my head is now with grapping. So, I change gears and lower the RPM and raise the IQ as my coach says.

So, you can even do both depending on your goals.

[panamaican]

Panamaican-san,

I would recommend leaving the Pinans/Heians as they are, These kata are for Goshin purposes not Jissen purposes. the kata are if you look at them "grappling kata" not "combat kata". Take a look at Iain Abernethy's view on kata or the Kissaki version of Shotokan's version headed by Shihan Morris this will make you see the kata should not be "amended" too much.

Concentrate on formulating other "kata" for the purpose of natural fighting or take up, if you can, either Ashihara or Enshin Karate as their Kata IS formulated to be done in a boxing stance etc.

OSU

Thank you for the advice, I'll look into them. If you don't mind, could you explain further what you mean by "grappling kata" and "combat kata"?

[Chitsu]

How do you define "To diverge from the kata" prior to discarding it?

To diverge from the Kata means to make gradual moves away from the conformity of the kata. Not change it, but practice additional processes in tandem with that of Kata.

This is done as part of a much wider learning curve – and we are talking after many years of training.

In Otsuka sensei's book, he uses the phrase "Enter into Kata then withdraw from Kata"

The Martial arts have numerous varieties of kata. Predecessors, over long periods of time, created kata through experience, changes and imagination.

 

It is obvious that these kata must be trained and practiced sufficiently, but one must not be "stuck" in them. One must withdraw from kata to produce forms with no limits or else it becomes useless. It is important to alter the form of the trained kata without hesitation to produce countless other forms by training. Essentially it is a habit created over long periods of training. Because it is a habit, it comes to life with no hesitation - by the subconscious mind.

So what I understand Otsuka to be saying is that your training should naturally incorporate the "additional" sets or alternative forms - but that core principles of movement taught in the katas proper must remain intact.

What Otsuka is talking about the "ha" stage of "shu-ha-ri"

I was once asked whether I ever invented new kata, and at first I answered no, but on thinking about it I do it all the time. Take for example the renraku waza that you do as part of your “Kihon” training - I am always making up new ones of these - and that’s the type of thing Otsuka is talking about imo - renraku waza in this respect is the creation of new forms.

The same applies with pair work. Ohyo kumite is a great way to explore options and possibilities that arise out of kata – and these are designed to be flexible – thats the whole point.

Then of course we have "Jiyu kumite" or free fighting. Done properly (and not to be confused with WKF style Shiai) this is a great way for the student to withdraw from the kata – and explore new forms – but the kata is always there working away in the background.

On writing about Shu-ha-ri, lets remember that although on the one hand it can be viewed as a chronological timeline - more accurately, “Shu-ha-ri” should be viewed as concentric circles that fit within one and other. Transitioning from "shu" to "ha" then "ri" is the embodiment and the internalization of all of these stages, that remain with the karate-ka throughout his lifelong training. At the core of it is the continuity of kata.

And while I respect your opinion, I think it ignores the history of kata themselves. Kata have been modified many times throughout history, new kata have been created and old ones discarded. Even in Funikoshi's Karate-Kyohan, Funikoshi's kata are modified between the first and later editions. Modification of kata is part and parcel of karate's history.

Perhaps we look at karate differently. To me, karate is kata-based as a teaching method. The movements of the kata train our body to perform those same movements at a moments notice. The isolation is for us to train our minds for calm and to hone the focus to apply these skills against another person with absolute conviction. We learn kata as a tool by which we improve these skills, we do not learn these skills as a tool by which to improve kata.

Katas may have changed over time, but in most part it has been in order to reflect what the founders of styles viewed as important principles within their created style. Despite the fact that in the modern idiom, it seems we are encouraged to be creators of our own style (after all there are so many around these days – why can’t we all do it) – you have to bear in mind that the creators of styles like Shotokan, Wado and Shitoryu etc. were experts in their field, immersed in a martial culture that we here in the west might say we understand but in truth we don’t.

So if we look at Shotokan's Heian Nidan it is different to that of its Wado equvilent "Pinan Shodan" because of differing principles of Taisabaki and Kime. But what remains constant is the important relationship of Embusen and Seichusen.

What this all comes down to is whether a martial arts school with a Kata based pedagogy is what you are after.

Is it the best way to deliver rapid results – NO

Is it the best way to effectively identify efficient self defence techniques – NO

Are they a repository of Killer martial techniques – NO

But they are reference source for correct movement, form, distance , timing, and line.

IMO this is truly what makes kata work - the techniques held within kata can be applied in a myriad of ways of you understand this relationship.

Your disdain for kickboxing is understandable but to equate all explorations of the martial aspects of karate with kickboxing seems to ignore why karate exists in the first place.

I do not have disdain for kickboxing.

Chitsu