Kata done naturally...(boxing guard, etc.)

[panamaican]

As a shotokan student, I am alwyas loking for ways to improve my kata as it applies to self-defense and kumite. One of the methods I've found very enlightening is practicing kata in more natural fighting stances.

For example: Practicing Heian Shodan from with a boxing guard with a more upright stance. Convert the gedan barai into a shortened movement for slapping down an opponent punch followed by the gyaku tsuki as a straight cross. Age uke remains the same but comes from the boxing guard with a shorter movement and a slight body lean to the opposite side. The embusen remains the same. Hikite brings the hand back to the bxoing guard position.

I've found that practicing my katas in some of these more natural variations has improved both my fluidity and application. Has anyone else tried this?

[Jeffrey]

One thing I would caution you on is that not all of your kata is made up of strikes, kicks and blocks. They are many Bunkai applications that are hidden within each Kata. Some of the strikes and blocks can be used as grabs and throws. The opening moves of Heian Shodan can be used as a block grab and arm bar followed by a skrike. Practice the Kata as it is meant. With a boxing guard you lose the intention of the Kata's Bunkai's.

[panamaican]

I agree that not all of the katas or even every part of a single kata can be practiced this way. But there are definitely sections in several katas that lend themselves to this form of practice. For instance, Heian Godan has very few sections that can be converted to this but there are more sections in Bassai Dai that can be experimented with than I would have thought.

There are enough sections in the katas that are strikes, kicks and blocks that I think the practice within the kata has merit. I don't believe that the intention of the bunkai gets lost because punching, kicking and blocking are often the intention of the kata's bunkai. The opening of Heian Shodan (using the shotokan curriculum, I guess I should have specified) can be an arm bar followed by a strike but they can also just be a block followed by a strike. Not every movement must be a hidden hold or throw, some are just strikes, kicks and blocks.

I've found that by looking into other striking arts, there are clear overlaps between kata movements and striking combinations taught in those arts. For example, there is a titled Muay Thai combination that has the exact same movements as a portion of Heian Nidan. I've seen Freddie Roach (boxing trainer) teach counter combinations that are in Bassai Dai. Many of the throws are taught in judo and the holds can be found in aikido.

As we personalize our kata and hence our karate, aren't we supposed to move past strict formalism into something more natural? Shouldn't kata practice move from perfect form to perfect function?

Or am I too far outside the box?

[Chitsu]

Kata is kata - as my sensei would say.

Change it too much and it ceases to be what it was in the first place.

Assuming a boxer’s guard for example not only lifts the hands and arms it alters the position of the shoulders and one posture.

When this starts you lose the fundamental purpose of performing the kata in the first place.... no not bunkai - that is a by-product.

To engender correct technique, form and principles of movement found within.

Chitsu

[panamaican]

Kata is kata - as my sensei would say.

Change it too much and it ceases to be what it was in the first place.

Assuming a boxer’s guard for example not only lifts the hands and arms it alters the position of the shoulders and one posture.

When this starts you lose the fundamental purpose of performing the kata in the first place.... no not bunkai - that is a by-product.

To engender correct technique, form and principles of movement found within.

Chitsu

I respectfull disagree with that position. I agree that bunkai is the not fundamental purpose of kata. I agree that the fundamental purpose is to train principles and proper technique and body mechanics. However, I don't subscribe to the belief that kata is indelible and so rigidly structured that changes during practice are always a bad thing.

To briefly address bunkai as it relates to this conversation. Very rarely are the bunkai/techniques (of respected martial artists more accomplished than myself) identical in form to the forms found with kata. Rather, it is the principles taught in the kata that are applied and not a slave-like devotion to the external form.

Yet, if kata serve the purpose of training principles and technique, it stands to reason that as the movements within the kata become ingrained in our minds and bodies, the logical step is that kata should begin to influence how we fight and, in turn, how we fight should begin to influence our kata.

You reference how using a boxing guard influences the position of the shoulders and personal posture within the kata. Yet if we were to substitute the throws, holds and techniques implied within kata for their actual techniques the posture, shoulders, foot position of karate-kas would also shift dramatically and rarely resemble their counterparts as usually practiced in form.

At some point, an individual's kata should adapt to represent how they actually apply techniques. Of course, I'm not suggesting that someone cease to train the kata in the traditional manner in which we learned them. But, if you apply a technique or fighting strategy adopted from your kata, it makes sense to me to train that movement in the kata where it appears and not the stylized movement it originated from. This serves to sharpen the applied movements and further engrain them in your muscle memory. If you don't chamber punches in kumite, sometimes training your kata without chambered punches can only reinforce the skills you've already chosen to apply, not undermine them.

I hope no one is offended by this position but I haven't found many writings on the subject and my own cross-training has opened my mind to the possibilities.

[joesteph]

I don't subscribe to the belief that kata is indelible and so rigidly structured that changes during practice are always a bad thing. . . .

Very rarely are the bunkai/techniques (of respected martial artists more accomplished than myself) identical in form to the forms found with kata. . . .

[K]ata should begin to influence how we fight and, in turn, how we fight should begin to influence our kata. . . .

At some point, an individual's kata should adapt to represent how they actually apply techniques. Of course, I'm not suggesting that someone cease to train the kata in the traditional manner in which we learned them. But, if you apply a technique or fighting strategy adopted from your kata, it makes sense to me to train that movement in the kata where it appears and not the stylized movement it originated from.

I appears to me that Panamaican is very interested in applications that he's identified, and has found a way to practice or semi-practice them in the absence of a partner--through modification of kata. As long as both the official and the modified are known, especially if presenting the official to your teacher, I find this to be a creative approach.

[jsteczko]

There are a lot of applications to every kata. And you probably founded the next one!

I will tell you this: if boxing guard fits you, then make it work. If you like it, then do it.

And I agree with a few persons who spoke before me. There are not only punches and kicks in katas. Locks and takedowns can also appear. But sometimes it's hard to see them and you must use your imagination.

[tallgeese]

If you want to keep kata in a system and still focus it on combat, what you're talking about is a good way to do it. It will engender better habits for actual use.

Personally, once you start going there you could simply take the next step and move on to other drills that will work those things more specifically and more organically than kata, bot to each his own.

As for bunkai, yes, I'm sure there are locks and throws in there in the old forms. If I have to use my imagination, however, I'm not maximizing my training time. If you want to work these things, then work them. Know what they are, how they are performed, ect. Then drill them, then add resistance, ect. It's a faster progression of learning that first having to dig them out of a movement pattern.

But again, it goes to your focus. If you're in this for preservation of a style or tradition, or any number of cultural resons then maybe changing them or elimination them is not for you.

However, if you're talking about maximal output for you training time then modifications like you're talking about or dropping it completely are absolutely on the table.

[Chitsu]

Kata is kata - as my sensei would say.

Change it too much and it ceases to be what it was in the first place.

Assuming a boxer’s guard for example not only lifts the hands and arms it alters the position of the shoulders and one posture.

When this starts you lose the fundamental purpose of performing the kata in the first place.... no not bunkai - that is a by-product.

To engender correct technique, form and principles of movement found within.

Chitsu

I respectfull disagree with that position. I agree that bunkai is the not fundamental purpose of kata. I agree that the fundamental purpose is to train principles and proper technique and body mechanics. However, I don't subscribe to the belief that kata is indelible and so rigidly structured that changes during practice are always a bad thing.

To briefly address bunkai as it relates to this conversation. Very rarely are the bunkai/techniques (of respected martial artists more accomplished than myself) identical in form to the forms found with kata. Rather, it is the principles taught in the kata that are applied and not a slave-like devotion to the external form.

Yet, if kata serve the purpose of training principles and technique, it stands to reason that as the movements within the kata become ingrained in our minds and bodies, the logical step is that kata should begin to influence how we fight and, in turn, how we fight should begin to influence our kata.

You reference how using a boxing guard influences the position of the shoulders and personal posture within the kata. Yet if we were to substitute the throws, holds and techniques implied within kata for their actual techniques the posture, shoulders, foot position of karate-kas would also shift dramatically and rarely resemble their counterparts as usually practiced in form.

At some point, an individual's kata should adapt to represent how they actually apply techniques. Of course, I'm not suggesting that someone cease to train the kata in the traditional manner in which we learned them. But, if you apply a technique or fighting strategy adopted from your kata, it makes sense to me to train that movement in the kata where it appears and not the stylized movement it originated from. This serves to sharpen the applied movements and further engrain them in your muscle memory. If you don't chamber punches in kumite, sometimes training your kata without chambered punches can only reinforce the skills you've already chosen to apply, not undermine them.

I hope no one is offended by this position but I haven't found many writings on the subject and my own cross-training has opened my mind to the possibilities.

Hi panamerican,

Unfortunately I have a problem with this - in much the same way as I have with the stuff promoted by so called "Bunkai Masters" that seem to get lapped up by people who are desperate to plug holes in their kata knowledge.

You say that Kata should not be viewed as indelible - and to an extent I agree with that. In Japanese kata based arts they say that kata should not become "Igata" - which is a kind of plant pot mould, but rather it should remain "Ikita" which means living kata, but to an extent I think that we here in the west struggle to delineate between what is accepted as live kata and what is no longer the kata you were doing in the first place.

To understand Kata and how it works within any kata based system (be that martial arts or flower arranging) you must understand and importantly have worked through the process of “Shu-ha-ri.

To Embrace the Kata

To Diverge from the Kata

To Discard the Kata.

Nowhere does it mention to "Modify the kata".

The adaptations you talk about are part of the process of training as a whole - and a sign that you have / are learning about alternative methods as a result.

It seems to me you are referring to what my group would say were "Ohyo" or transitional techniques which form a bridge between kata and Kumite and that’s great, but I would urge you not to lose site of the Kata as it is meant to be done.

Overtime it will continue to unlock a number of questions relating to technique.

I mean no disrespect by this, but if you want to learn kickboxing go to a kickboxing gym. If however you want to learn a kata based art, practice the kata the correct way - don't try and turn it into kickboxing just because (at where you are at the moment) kickboxing seems to make more sense to you.

Chitsu

[Kuma]

I actually disagree and think it's an interesting idea.

You don't always have to train a kata in exactly the same way it is taught. You can do the footwork alone, or you can just do the upper body techniques alone. You can go hard, or you can go soft. You can put a partner in front of you and see what works from the kata You can have your partner GRAB you and see what works from the kata. You can shift instead of step. And many many other variations.

So long as he's still practicing the kata itself, I see nothing wrong with experimenting with it.