Interesting observation.

[MMA_Jim]

The reason why people take sides and tend to get so defensive, whether they believe it or not, is fear.

Similar to religion and its views, everyone wants to believe that what they're doing it right, and everyone elses way is wrong. The more you can defend what you do, refute what someone else does, or gain more supportors for your cause, the more "right" and confident you feel that your way is the "best" way.

There are also those that attempts to be liberal and say "all styles are equal- its the practicioner." The bottom line is that some are better than others at certain things. A muay thai fighter will always kick harder than a wrestler, a boxer will always slip faster than a judoka, a jiu jitsu fighter move better on the ground than a karateka, etc.

Not realizing that they are still thinking within a box, different styles do have different things to offer, and fighting has not always been as it is in modern society.

A kung fu practitioner with deep stances does well in a mountainous terrain where footing is unsure-where a mobile boxer may slip (his footing) and never gain his balance.

A Japanese Ju Jitsu practitioner practices strikes to areas that seem to have limited value- why attack ones armpit rather than hitting their face or jaw? Again not of much use in modern day society, these targets are the only ones available when an opponent is wearing full battle armor.

These are small examples of why certain techniques and styles are so greatly different than others, and why styles like BJJ, Muay Thai, or boxing get the reputation for being so good- its because of the demands of modern society, but times change, and some time down the line, so to may the demands of what techniques are best suited for a fight.

[JiuJitsuNation]

Again amazed at the things I learn on here. Gotta read more on history!

[bushido_man96]

MMA_Jim is right. Many of the "traditional" styles are more worried about not changing, and maintaining the status quo, as it where, than they are about evolving along, as fighting does through time.

I'm not saying its a bad thing to preserve things from the past. History lessons are great things. But when attatchment to traditions holds back development, this is not productive, in my eyes.

[bub4444]

And Yoshida was defeated rather soundly by Royce noless....

You were speaking of exceptions rather than rules, I would say that fight was an exception to the rule of Yoshida kicking butt in general. I think it was obvious there was something wrong with Yoshida that fight (besides getting his --- handed to him). And when two practitioners of different styles face off, one with a general focus on grappling, and the other with a focus on submissions, I think it says something when the submission stylist gets mounted and choked out by the general grappling style. Of course I am referring to the first fight between Yoshida and Royce. Nonetheless I have nothing against BJJ, was just taken aback by the quote a little. Of course it helps to know the general strategies encouraged in the art your opponent practices, but it is not necessary to train in it, it is better to know the specific strategies used by the fighter.

On a side note: I do hate Royce Gracie though, complains every time he loses a fight, takes steroids to beat Sakuraba, etc.

[JiuJitsuNation]

Again my point of this thread is the tension between styles is more about fear and the high popularity of mma and the prominence of bjj in the ufc. I don't see judo guys dominating submission grappling matches. I do however see them do well. Especially when it comes to scoring the first 2 points. As is with wrestlers. And Yoshida IS an exception to the rule. He is phenomenal athlete as well. Sakuraba is as well. The Gracies are NOT athletes. They are a family of traditional jiu jitsu stylists and businessmen and have done well for themselves with what they created and accomplished. They didn't create jiu jitsu they just branded it and brought it to the united states. They are more like the wind carrying a seed. Take away the names the appearances and look at whats working.

Truth is the lines are blurring and history is coming back around again. Although people are resistant to change, Americans can see what works. I hated the fact that I pulled guard early on in competition because my stand up was not sound. I still killed from my back, either sweeping to the top to submit them or subs from the bottom. I got the take down many times as well as I had some judo experience. Then I employed a wrestling and judo couch. I traveled all over training with the best schools. And as a brown and black belt, I have been on my back one time in 37 matches and that is on because against a D-1 wrestler he shot in on a single leg and popped my knee. As they started to carry me off the mat the ref said I was winning with a minute 30 left in the 10 minute match. I got emotional argued with them to set me down in the middle of the mat. They did and I finished the guy with a triangle choke with 15 seconds to spar. Other than that I have finished all my opponents standing! Only going to the ground 2 other times (on top) in 37 matches. My point for telling everyone this is that it is ever so vital to be complete and or at least feel complete.

We are all gonna walk around with a fear or two in the back of our heads. The goal is to acknowledge those fears. I have no doubt you put a stick in my hand and i'll beat your head to the white meat! A knife and you will get cut. But I simply do not feel it's enough of a threat for me to spend my time training for it. I am COMFORTABLE with that decision.

Machida is a BJJ black belt with extensive judo and wrestling and he promotes Karate!! It's because of his father. With the grappling portion he wouldn't even belong in the ufc let alone hold a belt. We should all hold on to our roots. And embrace our instructors their history and our styles history. I have An American, Brazilian and Japanese Flag in my school because it promotes awareness. People ask Coach what flag is that, why is it up? Now they get a history lesson.

BTW the Gracies have a history of being beat by the Japanese. Anyone remember Kimura? They still always went back out and put their butts on the line. If that's not indomitable spirit I don't know what is.

[MMA_Jim]

And Yoshida was defeated rather soundly by Royce noless....

You were speaking of exceptions rather than rules' date=' I would say that fight was an exception to the rule of Yoshida kicking butt in general. I think it was obvious there was something wrong with Yoshida that fight (besides getting his --- handed to him). And when two practitioners of different styles face off, one with a general focus on grappling, and the other with a focus on submissions, I think it says something when the submission stylist gets mounted and choked out by the general grappling style. Of course I am referring to the first fight between Yoshida and Royce. [/quote']

In the first fight, Yoshida never mounted Royce. The best he did was get half guard. In a grappling competition, he would have gotten an advantage at best. The sleeve choke also was far from being secure. Ultimately the only person who can say whether it was really choking him or not was Royce, but the alternate angle of the fight shows Royce jump up the very second the fight was stopped. In fact he was actually on his feet before Yoshida was, and unconcious people dont exactly stand up-theres no disagreement as to whether Royce tapped or not- both side agree he didnt.

Yoshida cranked that choke for about 10 seconds- if Royce were being choked, he wouldve been unconcious by then. Yoshida may have thought he was choking him, but he should have said nothing to the ref, because he blew it when he stopped the fight, as the contract stated the ref did not have the authority to stop the match.

Frustrated feeling that he'd been set up in Yoshida's homeland, he demanded a rematch. Royce chose MMA rulesets because he felt Yoshida held too much- a few punches to the face will hasten anyone and if anything was settled after that fight, it was that Royce is simply on another level than Yoshida is on the ground- despite giving up 50 lbs.

On a side note: I do hate Royce Gracie though, complains every time he loses a fight, takes steroids to beat Sakuraba, etc.

He had nothing to say when he lost to Hughes- I'd protest the match against Yoshida too- if some ref screws me over so his hometown hero can claim victory.

As far as steroids, I dont know if he did or didnt- to be honost, I think the rematch was too late in either's career for it to matter. Everyone will always speak of their first fight- I dont think anyone really cared about the second. It was too long, Sakuraba had been through way too much beatings- I dont really think Royce avenged anything in that fight.

As to why he and many of the other Gracie's may complain when they lose- well that majority of them complain when they lose a decision. Given that they're all about finishing a fight, they get frustrated when someone just fights a little bit, doesnt do any damage, and eeks out a decision. That frustates me too, but unfortunately its part of the game. I guess what they're really trying to point out is that if you want to claim to beat a Gracie you have to BEAT them (i.e. KO or submit them) and they dont consider decisions to be losses (again, Im speculating).

On a side note, I didnt say you had to like Royce

[bub4444]

I really don't want to start a Judo vs BJJ thing, but I think some things must be set straight.

Yoshida was choking Royce, maybe it was loose, maybe it was tight, but Royce was not moving at all, and it appeared that he was stuck in that position. The ref did not want Royce to die, as far as he could tell he was out, as he had stopped moving.

Also, the Gracies join MMA fights where rules are rules, if they lose by decision, that is a loss, they agreed to the rules.

I do respect some of the Gracies, Helio and Ralek namely, but Royce is just the worst, and the most arrogant.

[JiuJitsuNation]

Royce Gracie lost. not the style and he lost to many styles as has Yoshida. People lose. And Royce and many other people come off the way they do because they are in the spot light ALL the time. The Japanese are the best at showing support and respect to all. I know Royce and he is abrasive but that doesn't make me dislike him. And any grappling style vs grappling style is a silly discussion. When one steps on the mat the rules generally determine the winner. In general most bjjers don't throw or wrestler well. And most judo and wrestler don't play guard very well. But in terms of self defense why not just adopt the strengths of all and not argue.

[tallgeese]

Well said.

[MMA_Jim]

I really don't want to start a Judo vs BJJ thing, but I think some things must be set straight.

Yoshida was choking Royce, maybe it was loose, maybe it was tight, but Royce was not moving at all, and it appeared that he was stuck in that position. The ref did not want Royce to die, as far as he could tell he was out, as he had stopped moving.

Again, you're making assumptions- Im not trying to get into a Judo bashing argument either, but Im also trying to make sure things are set straight.

How do you know Yoshida was choking Royce? He was attempting choke, thats for sure, but do you know how many attempted chokes fail? If a ref stopped a fight everytime someone tried a choke, every match in every tournament would be stopped cold.

In regards to Royce not moving at all- that even reinforces the suggestion that he wasnt being choked. Why would one choose not to move? Let your opponent gas himself off. I've done it on more than a few occassions, and given the Gracies notoriety for wanted to wear an opponent down before submitting him, its something I'd expect him to do.

What I would NOT expect him to do is to sit there and just take the choke while he slowly went unconcious. If you're getting choked thats not the time to hang out and do nothing.

Again the ruleset stated the ref was not allowed to stop the fight. He shouldnt have assumed anything, shouldnt have listened to Yoshida, and shouldnt have stopped the fight. Fact is, he may have actually robbed Yoshida of getting a legitamate victory since that was the best position he got in either of the fights.

And again, an unconcious person (or even one who was getting choked for 10 seconds) doesnt jump straight to his feet when the match is stopped prematurely. Royce stood up faster than Yoshida did and showed no signs of ever being choked (a choked individual would be a little light heady, woozy, and wobble on his feet).

Also, the Gracies join MMA fights where rules are rules, if they lose by decision, that is a loss, they agreed to the rules.

I do respect some of the Gracies, Helio and Ralek namely, but Royce is just the worst, and the most arrogant.

Hey, Im not disagreeing with you- thats the way that MMA is nowadays and thats how one must accept it- Im just telling you how they look at it.

As far as Royce being arrogant, well I'll tell you you're not the first person I've had tell me that (and Im not saying you're wrong) but again, Im not aruging about the guy's character