Can A Child/Kid?

[Ninja-Matt]

Well in my opinon and at my dojo i think you should be at least 16 before you can be a black belt...

[Patrick]

Thanks for the note, Lupin1.

All that matters is that he knows something that you want to know and can communicate that knowledge to you.

I think that's the key there. It's a very rare 16-year-old who can teach adults effectively.

Let's say that that is true. It's your opinion, which I respect. I don't agree with it, necessarily, but let's just say I do.

Who's fault is that? Is it sometimes the fault of the adults or is it always the 16 year old? There are a few issues at work here.

One of them is that we sometimes put too much into age. We dismiss youth and put false trust in adults, for no other reason than age. And then we get taken advantage of, for doing so.

The second issue is perhaps one of manifestation. As an adult, some of us feel slighted that a minor is instructing us. We feel it is beneath us, that there is nothing they can teach us, because we are older than them.

So, we manifest the weakness of this minor, even if it doesn't actually exist. We harp on the mistakes they make, when all people make mistakes. We remember when they are wrong, even though all people are wrong sometimes. And we see them with such a critical eye, an eye we'd never turn on our adult friends.

People are people. The high school students looking to take advantage of a substitute teacher are no different than the adult martial artists looking to run roughshod over a 16 or 17 year old teaching them. Maybe you haven't met many vindictive adults, but I've met plenty.

It may be somewhat rare to find a 16 year old that could lead a class that includes adults. I suppose. Part of this may be due to the stress the adults will place on the 16th year old, given this more critical eye.

If you are at a good school where students have to earn their ranks, I don't know that it would necessarily be rare. But, if it is, I would say it's somewhat rare to find someone who has the ability to teach well, period.

Not everyone is meant to teach. Not everyone is meant to get on stage and talk. Only a small percentage are. So, by it's very nature, only a small percentage of people are able to be a good teacher, whether they are 16 or 60.

Thanks,

Patrick

[Chitsu]

My group awards junior dan grades for both 1st and 2nd dan.

In a nutshell, it is "technically" possible for a student to grade to Junior Shodan at 12 years old, and junior Nidan at 18 years old. Neither grade is recognised as "full" until they are 21 years of age.

Sandan can not be taken by anyone under 28 years of age.

Yondan is 35 and Godan is 40

Club teaching is strictly confined to blackbelts over 21 years of age - but this is mainly due to insurance restrictions.

Chitsu

[Chitsu]

@ Patrick,

With the greatest of respect - I find it hard to correlate the teaching of a martial art with that of IT related projects.

Whilst I accept that teaching IS a skill and that not everyone can do well - responsibility / health and safety / safe training practices and experience are more realised over the fullness of time I think.

As I mentioned earlier - most insurance companies here in the UK will NOT insure anyone as a teacher under the age of 21. That speaks volumes I think, because of the "perceived” risks involved.

Let's face it at 19 - I thought I was indestructible.

Chitsu

[Patrick]

Chitsu,

The legal question is a separate one to answer, I would say, and a good point to raise. I was speaking more to legitimacy and ability, than legal liability. That sort of choice must be investigated and weighed, certainly.

I don't see it as a difficult correlation. People aren't born with some random ability to teach technology, any more than they are born with some random ability to teach martial arts. And the martial arts don't necessarily have to take any longer to reach a teachable level in.

Understanding technology is a result of personal traits, time invested, attention to detail, practice and retention. Understanding the martial arts is a result of personal traits, time invested, attention to detail, practice and retention.

(As an aside, what I was talking about wasn't really IT, though I suppose it may be IT related in some stretch, in that you sometimes use computers to achieve it. But, that's not a big deal. Online community and social media are more to do with people, than technology, as compared to general IT and the IT space).

19 is no longer a minor, so that's not really what I was speaking towards, but that doesn't really disprove what I said, anymore than it proves it.

A small percentage of the population is able to teach. That includes both minors and adults. Those that do, have a desire to teach. When you were 19, did you have a serious desire to teach other people anything?

Desire to teach is a very important component of this. You don't have two black belts, or whatever rank you want to start people teaching at, one who is 30 and one who is 19 and say "well, you're 30, so you teach."

That's a recipe for disaster. It should be judged on merit and being on this earth for 11 years more does not give you inherent qualification as a better teacher - a better person to share knowledge with those who want to receive it.

And even if you did have a desire to teach, you as a 19 year old does not reflect on anyone else as a 19 year old. Not that you were suggesting that - you weren't. There are 40 year olds who think they are indestructible.

Thanks,

Patrick

[sensei8]

Who's fault is that? Is it sometimes the fault of the adults or is it always the 16 year old?

The fault lies in the adult who can't seem to act adult, for one reason or another.

I speak as someone who was once a Shodan-ho (junior black belt) at the age of 13 years old. Most students begin teaching at the Sankyu level (brown belt) under the very watchful eye of the Chief Instructor.

That Chief Instructor is constantly guiding that Shodan-ho gently and carefully through every step of teaching.From A to Z and back; over and over and over. For me, this included teaching adult kyu ranks for either that class or for that day. Yet, I wasn't alone. My Dai-Soke was in the room supervising my every action to be sure that every 'i' was dotted and that every 't' was crossed.

In that, as a Shodan-ho, I was learning how to teach. More importantly, I was learning how to teach Shindokan properly and correctly. Learning how to not only formulate an understandable verbal corrections to the students. It's one thing to be able to do the techniques and the like, but it's entirely different to communicate the how's and the why's of the techniques. This takes time and this takes skill and more than anything, this takes patience. Again, before one can teach, one has to learn how to teach so that the students understand and so that the students can grasp the intent and the meaning of each technique.

I was lucky when I was a Shodan-ho because I had either my Dai-Soke and/or Senior Dan's in the room while I taught. Therefore, I didn't have to do much to get the adults to follow my instructions. Step off base and my Dai-Soke and the like would put that adult back on base. Little was given to me when I first started teaching, but as time went by, more was given to me. Why? Because I earned everything through trail and error while I was learning to teach.

Still, after some time had passed by and I proved myself and my teaching abilities, and that I wasn't a brat while I was teaching, I was allowed to teach without my Dai-Soke and the Senior Dan's in the same room. But, there was no out of sight, out of mind. No! My teaching was under the ever watchful eye, irregardless, one way or another. Just when I thought that I was teaching class alone, my Dai-Soke would talk with me, as he often did with all of his Shodan-ho, after each class, and he'd tell me what he saw and offer his corrections and suggestions, but always his support. I might not have seen him, but trust me, he was there.

Shodan-ho represents that that child/kid is almost/nearly a black belt. At this point, the student is more than a Ikkyu and not yet a Shodan. The Shodan-ho must be capable of executing all fundamental body movements and techniques with proper application. This includes all hand and leg techniques. Even moreso than the adults amongst the kyu ranks.

Why is the Shodan Ho level important in ones progression?

> Stepping off point.

> Transition in principle from adolescent to adult.

> Added burden of becoming a role model.

Teaching the martial arts isn't dependant on who can't teach, but, the martial arts is dependant on who can teach...and teaching effectively. Who says that a Shodan-ho can't teach? Adults, that's who! I was a Shodan-ho for 5 very long years. I learnt how to teach, because I wanted to and I was falling in love with teaching, young and old, Shindokan. Adults just don't want to give kids the credit that they're so rightfully deserving of, and as an adult, I've been taught more than a thing or two...by kids.

Yes, a child/kid still has a lot to learn from life and life experiences. We all have at one time or another! Nonetheless, respect for the rank of Shodan-ho must be given their dues and our respect. They've earned it, so for the love of all that is the martial arts...respect them and their rank! Adults who don't want to be instructed by a Shodan-ho, please step away from the high-horse that brought you to the dojo and remember your place under the very watchful eye of the Chief Instructor AND the Shodan-ho that's teaching you today and tomorrow and the day after that and so on and so forth.

If the association or the federation or the Hombu or whatever has the rank of Shodan-ho (junior black belt) deal with it; be an adult and keep quiet and just train. Now, if some adult kyu doesn't like the existence of Shodan-ho and/or some adult kyu doesn't want some snotty-nosed kid to teach them anything, then be polite, excuse oneself, and go train somewhere else. Obviously, if ones very own association or the federation or the Hombu or whatever approves of and certifies their Shodan-ho; then Mr/Maam adult kyu, that Shodan-ho was recognized by an adult Yudansha. If it's good enough for them, then it should be good enough for every adult kyu in that style. To disrespect a Shodan-ho is to disrespect ones styles governing body, and moreso, it's a sign of disrespect to ones Chief Instructor; and he/she is an adult!

Sorry for the rant! Please give the Shodan-ho a chance, you just might be pleasantly surprised at their abilities and the like.

[mr_obvious]

I think, after reading the last 1.5 pages, we've gotten.....a little out of phase with the original post. While I stick to my comments in post #3, as to whether or not a child could competently fill the role of a "real" 3rd Dan / Sensei; that's not to say I, or any other well-intentioned practitioner shouldn't take instruction or feedback from a child.

Where I currently train in Shorin-Ryu, we greet each other at the start of each class, or 1-on-1 exercises with the phrase "onegaishimasu." Which taken in the context of our dojo, can be translated to "please teach / show / help me." Everyone says it to everyone, even our Sensei's. Concept being -- we can all learn from each other, regardless of age, rank, experience, background....

[sensei8]

I could take lessons from a Shodan-ho, but, I couldn't and wouldn't take lessons from a certified Sandan child/kid for professional as well as personal reasons. Reasons that I'd rather keep to myself.

[bushido_man96]

My group awards junior dan grades for both 1st and 2nd dan.

In a nutshell, it is "technically" possible for a student to grade to Junior Shodan at 12 years old, and junior Nidan at 18 years old. Neither grade is recognised as "full" until they are 21 years of age.

The problem I have with these are if they are the same requirements as the "full" shodan or nidan. If that's the case, then what's the point of making them retest when they come "of age?"

I think, after reading the last 1.5 pages, we've gotten.....a little out of phase with the original post.

Hehe, this does happen a lot. But, its ok; its natural for threads to evolve and change throughout the course they run. Topics tend to branch off into subcategories, which then break off into preferences and other subs, and so on. Its ok. Its what makes the discussion nature of the community so great.

I just wanted to throw this out there, as well........----Didn't Mushashi win his first duel when he was 14???????