Can A Child/Kid?

[sensei8]

Within KarateForums, one can find many topics concerning kids/children earning/receiving a black belt; should they or shoudn't they. Depending on which side of the fence one is on, opinions widely differ. Therefore, I've decided to offer to the members of KarateForums a slightly different approach to this phenomenon.

Here we go.

There are children/kids that have black belts, this can't be disputed, it's a fact. There are children/kids that have rank, 1st Dan, 2nd Dan, and 3rd Dan. It's this child/kid 3rd Dan that I want to concentrate on as we discuss this with the interested members of KarateForum.

Basic preface is this. Karate considers the rank of Sandan [3rd Dan] as the rank where one is generally considered the first teaching level of karate. A Sandan is the "stepping out" ranking because it is much farther distant from nidan than nidan is from shodan. The Sandan is expected to have a clear understanding of all the underlying principles of all techniques and body movements. A Sandan should be able to independently produce Shodans [1st Dan], taking students from white belt to black belt without any outside help.

Here's a hypothetical background. A child/minor with a legitimate 3rd Dan wants to start teaching on their own. This child is age 16 years. The only thing in the way is that an adult can't enter into a binding legal contract with a minor. So, the parent(s) open a dojo for little Mary or little Tom. Sensei Mary/Tom do all of the teaching and the like while the parent(s) run the "front office" of the dojo. Now, the testing cycle is upon this dojo/dojang...

>Can this child/kid, who holds a legitimate 3rd Dan, issue rank and/or certificates up to 1st Dan?

Lets please forget the arguements about who would want one and the like, please! Lets please also forget the arguements about what this kids very own instructor might or might not say and/or what their styles governing body is going to say. Lets please forget about disrespecting those black belts that are child/kid black belts. These are great arguements, I'm sure, but I think these arguements might be best served for another time and another topic. Please!

Let the discussion begin!

[Lupin1]

Can they? Of course. There are no laws against it. If people are willing to pay and take them seriously, then of course a child can teach at his or her parents' dojo and give out black belts. The questions is if people are going to pay and take them seriously and if those blackbelts are really going to be worth all that much when given out by a kid who still has his learners permit and can't even be trusted to vote or enter into a contract yet. There's a reason the government sets the voting age so high and I believe it takes the same kind of wisdom and discernment to vote as it does to determine who's ready to recieve a black belt. There may be kids out there with the wisdom and experience to be able to have that discenment, but those kids are few and far between, in my experience.

I remember when I was in JROTC in high school. Our corps was basically run by the 17-year-old seniors. And the leaders were the cream of the crop as far as high school students went-- National Honor Society, Eagle Scouts and Gold Award Girl Scouts, top of our class academically, leaders in other organizations around campus and some of us even had scholarships and military academy appointments lined up for us for when we graduated. But we still weren't trusted in handing out ranks to our fellow cadets. Even the cream of the crop high school kids were still just high school kids. We based our decisions on who we liked/didn't like, who was popular and cool, who might threaten our own power and authority, our whims of the moment, and we went by our adolescent ideas that we were infallible and all-knowing. It's just the nature of a high school student. Again-- there are those who are more mature and beyond that, but those kids are few and far between. And of course there are adults who never grow up and still act like that, but we're not talking about them right now.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Lupin1

[mr_obvious]

I suppose its possible, from a technical perspective. I personally wouldn't set much store in a sensei, who possesses so little life experience. I'm a firm believer that Karate is a broader subject than merely application of forms.

[DWx]

I'd like to think it was possible depending on the individual of course. My sister is a 2nd dan and she's 16 (she's eligible to take her 3rd soon but she's not for various reasons). I'd trust her to run a class and issue colour belt ranks. Maybe not test the higher colour belts but in our style its normal to send people away to area gradings and other instructors for that and I'd personally have no problem in her teaching people up to this level and I don't think anyone that trains with her would either.

I did a fair bit of teaching when I was that sort of age too. I think teachers up to 3rd dan should have the guidance of their own teacher anyway no matter how old they are.

[Jeffrey]

I suppose its possible, from a technical perspective. I personally wouldn't set much store in a sensei, who possesses so little life experience. I'm a firm believer that Karate is a broader subject than merely application of forms.

Having taught many sports as a both a coach and individaul instructor I have to agree with the above statement. Teaching is not always about how much you know on the subject. Life experience plays a huge role in how to apply each lesson.

[bushido_man96]

The problem comes in adults being willing to take this youngster seriously. At an age when parents are still teaching this youngster, how can one expect to be taught and promoted by said youngster? I think that is where the problem lies.

[sensei8]

The problem comes in adults being willing to take this youngster seriously. At an age when parents are still teaching this youngster, how can one expect to be taught and promoted by said youngster? I think that is where the problem lies.

Remember, I'm just playing devil's advocate here...okie dokie!?

However, the adults are being taught/promoted by a legitimate 3rd Dan who's only in the 9th/10th grade. No doubt that this is a very big pill to swallow for any adult. I wonder which of them, adult or the kid, are being mature about the whole thing!?!

Knowledge is paramount. This kid doesn't have much knowledge in life, but, in this kids style of the martial arts, this kid has the knowledge of a legitimate 3rd Dan. Possibly this kids knowledge as a 3rd Dan is the type of knowledge that is of the acquaintance with or understanding of a science, art, or technique.

[Lupin1]

I don't know, though. Just because someone is a 3rd dan and has the knowledge, doesn't mean they have the ability to pass it on effectively. Again, as a professional educator I have to say that just because someone's good at something doesn't mean they'd be good at teaching it. Being a good teacher means being able to organize and keep control of a class and pay attention to your students enough to know what they need and how they're progressing and having the wisdom and life experience to pass on the knowledge in a way the students will understand and that will treat the students with dignity and at their level in life. A child cannot know how adults learn and how to treat an adult student because they've never been an adult. I don't think it's as much a "is the adult being immature by not wanting to learn from a child who has the knowledge" as much as it is "can a child teach a mature adult while respecting and teaching to that level of maturity".

[DWx]

Nice post Lupin. I agree that the person teaching (whatever age or grade) has to have the ability to teach as well.

Does the kid have to be teaching adults? What if they were just running a child's/teens class? Kids can relate to other kids and the issue of being taught by someone younger than yourself isn't so much of a problem.

[sensei8]

Perhaps for this hypothetical dojo, the parents need to hire an adult 3rd Dan to teach the adults, and that 3rd Dan child/kid can teach the kids classes. Problem solved.

Will this 3rd Dan child/kid instructor be able to sign either age groups certificates?