Should children be given black belts?

[JiuJitsuNation]

Just please, to whomever this might be directed to, don't wrongly judge us who were once a JBB as well as those who've awarded the JBB, please!

Possibly the martial arts is in a quagmire; a Catch-22 if I ever saw one in the martial arts!

I wasn't directing it to anyone. But looking at it again I didn't mean to be offensive if thats how it came across. It's just I visit as many martial arts schools as possible and talk business with them all regardless of style and the root of JBB's is the same. Retention and money. There is a trend in BJJ with this now too. I just refuse to comply with what seems to be good business. Me being idealistic may be detrimental to my business. I hope not.

[sensei8]

Imho, the only thing that's detrimental to any business is the refusal to change. Who Moved My Cheese?! The refusal to recognize that change is inivitable and necessary for any business to survive; is to change. This, to me, doesn't include my syllabus/curriculum/integrity and/or me becoming another McDojo...this I won't accept. Promotions MUST BE EARNED AT ALL TIMES!

Good business includes standing up for what you believe in. However, if staying in business means, as part of change, that I HAVE TO promote ever child and/or adult to BB to stay in business...well...I'd rather be out of business!

My integrity and my martial arts isn't for sale!

[JiuJitsuNation]

Imho, the only thing that's detrimental to any business is the refusal to change. Who Moved My Cheese?! The refusal to recognize that change is inivitable and necessary for any business to survive; is to change. This, to me, doesn't include my syllabus/curriculum/integrity and/or me becoming another McDojo...this I won't accept. Promotions MUST BE EARNED AT ALL TIMES!

Good business includes standing up for what you believe in. However, if staying in business means, as part of change, that I HAVE TO promote ever child and/or adult to BB to stay in business...well...I'd rather be out of business!

My integrity and my martial arts isn't for sale!

Awesome!

[DWx]

Good business includes standing up for what you believe in. However, if staying in business means, as part of change, that I HAVE TO promote ever child and/or adult to BB to stay in business...well...I'd rather be out of business!

My integrity and my martial arts isn't for sale!

That's a great attitude to have. But what if your integrity tells you that an under 18 truly deserves a bbelt?

[bushido_man96]

In my school, we use a junior black belt (class rather than kyu) system because children can not hit or kick as hard as an adult, but they can often understand and preform all the requirements just as well and often better and with more speed and grace than an adult. When the junior black belt reaches an age (no certain one) where I or another instructor feels that they can compete adequately with an adult and not be injured, the junior black belt may be promoted through testing to a regular adult level black belt (1st dan).

Is the test different this time around? Do they pay another testing fee this time around?

[bushido_man96]

... children can not hit or kick as hard as an adult.

I don't think that's a fair judgement to make. Kids can hit and kick as hard as an adult if you train them properly. This'll be evident if you have a breaking requirement for grading. Sure they wont break as much as a 200 lb man but neither is a smaller woman. But kids are definitely capable of breaking one board, a lot I know can go through two pine ones easy. Think this goes back to not allowing kids to have a belt purely because of their size.

This is another dead-on statement. Its unfair to try to class them in with adults, because of their size. Most kids are never going to be able to out-strength an adult. Comparing kids to adults in these areas is comparing apples to oranges. I know some adults that aren't as big and strong as some high school athletes. Its just tough to use it as a measuring stick.

[senseikellam]

I had not intended to write anymore on this subject as it is clear that it is a very complicated topic where many are divided and when I said:

... children can not hit or kick as hard as an adult.

many of you failed to understand that it was NOT my intention to compare apples to oranges, but, rather to use common sense that we must look at the situation with caution. Yes, some kids can hit as hard as some adults. We are all INDIVIDUALS, after all.

, however, I will answer the questions.

Is the test different this time around? Do they pay another testing fee?

The junior black belt doesn't pay another testing fee. All they pay is $20.00 for the new certificate and $60.00 for a new solid color black belt with custom embroidery if they want to get the belt from us (or they are welcome to get just a plain black one for $12.00 from us or they can buy their own elsewhere). Either replaces the black with white stripe they had worn as a JBB. The test may be slightly more intense as they should be more skilled and have more stamina, but, it doesn't vary that much. They may be required to break more, do more katas, spar longer. Remember, it is the child's choice along with their parents if they wish to test for a JBB or just wait until they are able to test for the regular BB. If they choose to wait, then they save $20.00 and cost of whichever belt if purchased from us.

As stated before:

Because people are individuals and differences exist between them, my dojo looks at the individual. We have standards to go by which are designed to protect the individual from harm. Some individuals are ready for a full black belt at 14 or even earlier and some or not and that is just the way it is. (You should see how big some of the kids are at 12 much less at 14 in my school). But, it is not just about being ready physically, the individual must be ready mentally and very, very, view are at such a young age. As with everything in life, there are exceptions and 2 such exceptions exist in my school. Should those that are not ready at 14 or those that can't hit as hard as others have the right to train, YOU BET YOUR BOOTS THEY SHOULD. All martial artist hope that a day never comes when we are put in a life or death situation, but, everyone deserves the chance to learn skills that might help saves their lives if such a time comes.

[sensei8]

Good business includes standing up for what you believe in. However, if staying in business means, as part of change, that I HAVE TO promote ever child and/or adult to BB to stay in business...well...I'd rather be out of business!

My integrity and my martial arts isn't for sale!

That's a great attitude to have. But what if your integrity tells you that an under 18 truly deserves a bbelt?

Then I'll present that student, who's under 18 years old, a Junior Black Belt, not, a full-fledged Yudansha until that student reaches 18 years old because I'd still be under the umbrella of the Hombu! My Hombu won't allow it, it's just that plain and it's just that simple. Oh sure, I can issue any certificate I want that's under my authority, but, I might as well've done the certificate on toilet paper because the Hombu would send it right back to me with a big INVALID stamp affixed upon the certificate, as well as a nice reminder letter.

[Kassen]

Sorry, coming in late to the thread but I wanted to contribute. If someone has been training for years, train on a very regular basis and has the technical ability to perform techniques common to senior Kyu grades, then why should they not be graded to BB?

Your training starts in earnest at black belt and you start understanding what your techniques / kata / bunkai etc are and I am not saying that you should teach under 18’s some of the more sensitive aspects of martial arts. However by allowing them to attain the junior BB grade, you are just allowing them to be recognised for their skill level and to have the recognition within the club. They can then continue to hone their skills until they reach 18 and their real training can begin

There must be an understanding that junior Dan grades do not have the same rank as an adult BB or standing within the club or martial art as they do not have the level of maturity. It should also be clear that I am not advocating teaching the application of certain techniques to minors or expecting them to have a full understanding of what they are doing but they should have the opportunity to put themselves in a position to do that once they are mature enough to continue their martial arts career.

Kids are the future, if we do not train under 18’s to a high standard while they are young, not only will we lose some to other sports and interests, but these senseis of the future will never reach their potential and help carry on martial arts to the next generation. We need to allow the younger generation the opportunity to be the best that they can be and if we are not letting them progress to BB before 18 we risk losing people that could help martial arts progress in the years to come.

There are many clubs out there that are only interested in generating revenue and throw black belts at people after a few years of training once or twice a week. It is vitally important that, when a junior is identified that has the skill, motivation, desire and discipline to train to BB level, we continue to train and develop them, allowing them to take the art forward in the right way and teach the next generation the values and discipline that martial arts has given us.

p.s. Sorry for the long post

[Patrick]

No worries on the long post, Kassen. I didn't find it long at all. Welcome and thanks for contributing.

Patrick