Should children be given black belts?

[quinteros1963]

I say give the kids a jr black belt. Perhaps with a stripe in the middle of the belt to signify that its a jr rank. When they are older (16-18) allow them to test for the full rank.

[DWx]

...no offense to anyone but i cant see a 10-12 year old black belt being able to stop a grown man putting them into the back of a van and abducting them.

I don't think this is a fair arguement to make for children not earning black belts. Its true that children are easily overpowered by adults. What you have to look at is what the child knows and can do as compared to other children his/her same age.

The child vs. adult agrument isn't much different than making a professional MMA fighter vs. average adult black belt argument. The two are just too different to try to compare. But, does the inability for an average adult black belt to beat a professional MMA fighter mean that person isn't deserving of his/her rank? I don't believe so.

Thoughts?

As i said, it depends on the style taught and mainly on the individuals objectives, if that particular child wanted to fight in a competitive environment with rules i.e same age opponents then by all means prove their knowledge with the belt.

However the thing that bugs me, i was observing a karate lesson recently at my local gym and two of the assistant instructors both maybe 13-15 were helping some of the students with kicking from zenkustu dachi, now i'd see nothing wrong with this apart from the fact that these two black belt instructors were not locking down into the stance and were both firing off kicks that pulled them off balance and caused them to wobble, now the kick in question was a mae geri, that along with the zenkutsu dachi is right up with the first stances and techniques most students learn and as such a black belt should be very familiar with them.

To sum it up, i've no problem with a black belt who clearly knows the syllabus and can perform it to that level, but seeing a black belt unable to perform yellow belt techniques bugs me, it seems as though they've been given the belt simply because they've been there longer than anyone else.

I don't think that demonstrates the fact that children shouldn't have blackbelts, more that that school's standards are low. If they aren't demanding high standards from all students, including children blackbelts, then maybe none of them should have the belt regardless of the age. Or if they are being lenient on children because they are younger then the school is at fault.

Going back to your earlier point about a 10 - 12 yr old stopping a man abducting them, a 5 foot, 100 lb woman is also going to have difficulty doing that.

[StrangeBacon]

I say give the kids a jr black belt. Perhaps with a stripe in the middle of the belt to signify that its a jr rank. When they are older (16-18) allow them to test for the full rank.

I like this idea, im sure some schools probably do it too

[sensei8]

I guess the funny thing about this whole discussion for me is that although we have varied opinions on the subject, I guess it boils down to one thing...possibly we shouldn't even worry about the darn thing. Why? Unless we're the founder of said style, then our opinions aren't worth a bag of beans. Even if we're a practitioner of said style, our opinions to the headquarters won't merit much concern to consider a change.

I don't know, it's one way or another. Give or don't give black belts to children, it's not my decision to make. After awhile, all of my posturing for or againt the practice becomes a lot of blah, blah, blah. No matter how much I like or don't like the practice, it's still being done. Why? Because they didn't ask me for my opinion, they just do it, and they don't care what I think. I'm cool with that; after all, I've got no choice AND no say in the matter.

[isshinryu5toforever]

I guess the funny thing about this whole discussion for me is that although we have varied opinions on the subject, I guess it boils down to one thing...possibly we shouldn't even worry about the darn thing. Why? Unless we're the founder of said style, then our opinions aren't worth a bag of beans. Even if we're a practitioner of said style, our opinions to the headquarters won't merit much concern to consider a change.

I don't know, it's one way or another. Give or don't give black belts to children, it's not my decision to make. After awhile, all of my posturing for or againt the practice becomes a lot of blah, blah, blah. No matter how much I like or don't like the practice, it's still being done. Why? Because they didn't ask me for my opinion, they just do it, and they don't care what I think. I'm cool with that; after all, I've got no choice AND no say in the matter.

Nothing truer has been said. That's an excellent way to put it.

Unless we create a martial arts commission ala the Dai Nippon Budokai, or like the boxing commissions in each state...hmmm?

[bushido_man96]

...no offense to anyone but i cant see a 10-12 year old black belt being able to stop a grown man putting them into the back of a van and abducting them.

I don't think this is a fair arguement to make for children not earning black belts. Its true that children are easily overpowered by adults. What you have to look at is what the child knows and can do as compared to other children his/her same age.

The child vs. adult agrument isn't much different than making a professional MMA fighter vs. average adult black belt argument. The two are just too different to try to compare. But, does the inability for an average adult black belt to beat a professional MMA fighter mean that person isn't deserving of his/her rank? I don't believe so.

Thoughts?

I'm 38 and a pretty nice sized guy. I was sparring with my 9 year old son a couple of weeks ago and he caught me in the eye with a ridgehand. Now he didn't drop me or knock me out, but he did cause me to step back some and slow me down. This can make all the difference in the world if someone is trying to take him. Plus I have to believe he was holding back a little on old dad too.

I see what you are saying here. Now, add in a level of determination and goal-oriented thought process in the mind of an attacker, and how much can the situation change? That said, it could be enough to buy the child the time he needs to get away. But, at the same time, we aren't talking about being able to "take" and adult, either.

[bushido_man96]

I guess the funny thing about this whole discussion for me is that although we have varied opinions on the subject, I guess it boils down to one thing...possibly we shouldn't even worry about the darn thing.

Its quite funny to me, how many of us as MAists will speak of how the belt doesn't matter. But in this case, it does....

....so, it leaves me to wonder how many of us have gone back on what we said when we claim "the belt doesn't matter...."?????

[sensei8]

I guess the funny thing about this whole discussion for me is that although we have varied opinions on the subject, I guess it boils down to one thing...possibly we shouldn't even worry about the darn thing.

Its quite funny to me, how many of us as MAists will speak of how the belt doesn't matter. But in this case, it does....

....so, it leaves me to wonder how many of us have gone back on what we said when we claim "the belt doesn't matter...."?????

No, the belt still doesn't matter, not to me; knowledge is paramount. I'm of the crowd that says no child under 18 years old can have a full-fledged Yudansha because my Soke said so...period! I'm of the crowd that says a child that's 13 years old through 17 years old can only have a Junior Black Belt, but no rank advancements until one becomes 18 years of age and older because my Soke said so...period! Because my Soke wrote our Articles and By-Laws, then for us of Shindokan, this is our gospel truth, and these particular Articles/By-Laws have never been challenged, thus they've not been changed to date.

Therefore, I'm still not going to worry about the darn thing because it is what it is, and for us in the Shindokan, it's a done thing. It's out of my hands!

[sensei8]

I think that, generally speaking, adults fall victim to the same trappings that a child or a minor might. I mean, what are the reasons you would withhold a black belt from someone, just because of their age?

Because they failed the test! Nothing more and nothing less!

I've heard things like...

1. They aren't emotionally ready.

2. They aren't physically ready (strong enough). They can't fight.

3. It'll give them a big ego (might be the same as emotionally ready, but let me give it it's own place! ).

The problem with these reasons is that all of these things are true for adults, as well.

So, if that is the case, age becomes an arbitrary limitation that almost plays a stereotype. Yeah, most minors shouldn't reach black belt. But, most adults shouldn't, either, right?

I concur! But...age, within Shindokan's Articles and By-Laws aren't arbitrary, no, age has a meaningful content, and the limitations are known within our Articles/By-Laws, and in that, the age thing doesn't play any sterotype, no, the age requirements are fact!

You should only reach it if you pass the necessary tests and gradings and have the appropriate knowledge.

Absolutely, as long as we're talking about the Yudansha and NOT rank.

As an aside, the reason people hold back minors isn't always pure, either. For some people, it's a matter of insecurity. If a 13-17 year old can attain their rank, it somehow cheapens their rank or makes them feel like they are in some way inadequate. For some others, it could be a way to make more money, forcing them to test twice and earn the same belt twice.

Absolutely!

[Akikazeninja]

I am not jealous of this kid but there is a kid in my dojo that is eleven and is 7th kyu I know it isnt shodan but here is my point HE CANT PERFORM HIS KATA OR MANY OF THE BLOCKS WE DO CORRECTLY i just think there should be a higher stander because I am sure we would ALL be better at what we do, so before your next test ask yourself if you could perform your test the way YOU would want it done not the way that is just enough to pass the test