Should children be given black belts?

[GeoGiant]

Wow, there are a lot of good points on both sides of this debate. I have to say i never really thought about it too much.

First and foremost I judge another belt by how they handle themselves when we line up across from each other. I can appreciate someone who looks crisp when they perform a kata and I strive to do the same but you still need to be able to defend.

I line up against 16 yr old brown belts that i will totally dominate (I'm still a yellow belt... for at least another month). However I've meet other 16 yr old brown belts that I've tired to use my height / reach advantage on and they knew it so they took their technique to another level to let me know they got game - I expect and appreciate that.

So I guess what i'm saying is - regardless of belt i will show proper respect in the dojo however if your rank is BB I expect you to have a certain skill set... and if you line up across from me [in a good natured, competition type way] I will poke you to see what you got.

[sensei8]

Of every style of the martial arts that uses the kyu/dan ranking system, I've never seen, as of yet, an explanation from any headquarters as to why their age requirements are thus and so. The, "because we said so", "because it's always been our way" and/or "because", imho, isn't a valid reason, not that they need one to satisfy, but, an honest question deserves an honest answer. It's their organization, and in that, I suppose that they can do as they wish, no matter the topic.

In order to be promoted to the next rank, the student needs to not only be proficient in the kihon, kata, and kumite for that rank, but in all the previous rank requirements as well. A student testing, for example, for brown belt would be expected be able to demonstrate a much better front kick then he did when he tested for purple belt.

In Shindokan, it's not the maturity of the karateka, although we do have age requirements from 10th kyu to 10 dan, but, it's the maturity of techniques that's expected and required.

[isshinryu5toforever]

Despite the differing opinions, I think we have to examine the weight that is put on being a black belt. In the west, being a black belt seems to hold some mysticism. That's why Daniel asks Mr. Miyagi what kind of belt he has in the first movie. He thinks being a black belt makes you some sort of ultimate master.

In East Asia, it's far different. EVERYONE in South Korea seems to be a first dan. It takes you about a year, two if you're a slow learner, three if you're a kid. They don't make a bit fuss over it. Your instructor tests you first, then you go to the Kukkiwon, you pass their 10 minute exam, and boom, you're a newly minted first dan. There's not a lot of elation though, because the rank doesn't mean that much to them. 4th dan and up, well you take a written test, a theory test, a judge/coach test, and you do 2 v 1 and 3 v 1 sparring, much more comprehensive. Those are the ranks they respect.

I think our answers about whether children should be allowed to be black belts stem mostly from our emotional and psychological attachment to what "rank" means. In South Korea, they have a much more age-based hierarchy. A new Judoka (Yudo here) that's 35 will probably get more respect than an 8-year-old brown belt. I think we tend to associate rank with respect, when that simply isn't the case. My pastor certainly has my respect, but he'll never be a black belt. There are also adult black belts who will likely never have my respect until they grow up. So, if a kid knows the syllabus, sure make him a black belt, but he has to earn respect.

[Rateh]

Also if you are going to argue that size is an issue, then you are going to count a lot of women out of black belts too. At not quite 5'3" I was shorter than 75% of the students at the middle school I worked at, which was 11-14 year old students. If kids under 14 are counted out because of size, then I would never be big enough to earn a black belt.

[sensei8]

Hopefully, size ISN'T the issue at all for anybody. Size just isn't a general requirement for black belt because it has no bearing, imho.

[StrangeBacon]

Our style has recently opened up lessons for juniors so that they can get in on the lessons and learn + grow with each other, that lasts till they're 16 and they can then attend the 16+ lessons which consist of contact sparring, bunkai and knife defense.

Reason for the divide in age is due to the nature of the style and the focus on reality based combat, all the katas and wazas are there, even artistic weapons gradings such as sword but due to the world we live in today we have as i said a high focus on the reality based side and as such you cant grade without being able to perform those knife defense and bunkai drills against an adult attacker.

Personally i like it this way, i get a better sense of my ability and hope that i would be able to handle myself if such a situation did arise, no offense to anyone but i cant see a 10-12 year old black belt being able to stop a grown man putting them into the back of a van and abducting them.

I see the black belt as not only time in a Gi and knowledge of your art but as both mental and physical fortitude and the ability to truely hold your own against an attacker.

Again it comes down to personal preference, our lessons would be unsuited to children, but on the other hand i went to the SENI recently and saw some increadible young martial artists, couldnt fault them, but as i said earlier i wouldnt put money on them in a street scenario.

Dont let me put you off however the dojo has a great atmosphere and everyones very helpful and welcoming, just be prepared to give as good as you get

[bushido_man96]

...no offense to anyone but i cant see a 10-12 year old black belt being able to stop a grown man putting them into the back of a van and abducting them.

I don't think this is a fair arguement to make for children not earning black belts. Its true that children are easily overpowered by adults. What you have to look at is what the child knows and can do as compared to other children his/her same age.

The child vs. adult agrument isn't much different than making a professional MMA fighter vs. average adult black belt argument. The two are just too different to try to compare. But, does the inability for an average adult black belt to beat a professional MMA fighter mean that person isn't deserving of his/her rank? I don't believe so.

Thoughts?

[isshinryu5toforever]

The child vs. adult agrument isn't much different than making a professional MMA fighter vs. average adult black belt argument. The two are just too different to try to compare. But, does the inability for an average adult black belt to beat a professional MMA fighter mean that person isn't deserving of his/her rank? I don't believe so.

Thoughts?

I think this is a great argument, and agree 100%. That's why I have a hard time advocating against black belts for children. A 7 year old, ok, I can argue against that, but a 13 year old, that's a little different. In Korea a black belt in Taekwondo just means you know the basics and taeguk forms 1-8. That's it, period. From what I've heard about yudo (judo) here, it means you know a couple throws and you won't get hurt if they throw you full force. It means that they really do view first dan as simply a beginning. You're kind of a novice as a first dan. You know the basics, but you're not going to compete with the best. It's a far cry from what the US desires out of a black belt, or most people in the US.

[StrangeBacon]

...no offense to anyone but i cant see a 10-12 year old black belt being able to stop a grown man putting them into the back of a van and abducting them.

I don't think this is a fair arguement to make for children not earning black belts. Its true that children are easily overpowered by adults. What you have to look at is what the child knows and can do as compared to other children his/her same age.

The child vs. adult agrument isn't much different than making a professional MMA fighter vs. average adult black belt argument. The two are just too different to try to compare. But, does the inability for an average adult black belt to beat a professional MMA fighter mean that person isn't deserving of his/her rank? I don't believe so.

Thoughts?

As i said, it depends on the style taught and mainly on the individuals objectives, if that particular child wanted to fight in a competitive environment with rules i.e same age opponents then by all means prove their knowledge with the belt.

However the thing that bugs me, i was observing a karate lesson recently at my local gym and two of the assistant instructors both maybe 13-15 were helping some of the students with kicking from zenkustu dachi, now i'd see nothing wrong with this apart from the fact that these two black belt instructors were not locking down into the stance and were both firing off kicks that pulled them off balance and caused them to wobble, now the kick in question was a mae geri, that along with the zenkutsu dachi is right up with the first stances and techniques most students learn and as such a black belt should be very familiar with them.

To sum it up, i've no problem with a black belt who clearly knows the syllabus and can perform it to that level, but seeing a black belt unable to perform yellow belt techniques bugs me, it seems as though they've been given the belt simply because they've been there longer than anyone else.

[skullsplitter]

...no offense to anyone but i cant see a 10-12 year old black belt being able to stop a grown man putting them into the back of a van and abducting them.

I don't think this is a fair arguement to make for children not earning black belts. Its true that children are easily overpowered by adults. What you have to look at is what the child knows and can do as compared to other children his/her same age.

The child vs. adult agrument isn't much different than making a professional MMA fighter vs. average adult black belt argument. The two are just too different to try to compare. But, does the inability for an average adult black belt to beat a professional MMA fighter mean that person isn't deserving of his/her rank? I don't believe so.

Thoughts?

I'm 38 and a pretty nice sized guy. I was sparring with my 9 year old son a couple of weeks ago and he caught me in the eye with a ridgehand. Now he didn't drop me or knock me out, but he did cause me to step back some and slow me down. This can make all the difference in the world if someone is trying to take him. Plus I have to believe he was holding back a little on old dad too.