Should children be given black belts?

[sensei8]

If I'm wanting to promote a kid to BB, then I'd better start my own federation/association/etc because my Hombu won't validate a kid BB.

[DWx]

Good business includes standing up for what you believe in. However, if staying in business means, as part of change, that I HAVE TO promote ever child and/or adult to BB to stay in business...well...I'd rather be out of business!

My integrity and my martial arts isn't for sale!

That's a great attitude to have. But what if your integrity tells you that an under 18 truly deserves a bbelt?

Then I'll present that student, who's under 18 years old, a Junior Black Belt, not, a full-fledged Yudansha until that student reaches 18 years old because I'd still be under the umbrella of the Hombu! My Hombu won't allow it, it's just that plain and it's just that simple. Oh sure, I can issue any certificate I want that's under my authority, but, I might as well've done the certificate on toilet paper because the Hombu would send it right back to me with a big INVALID stamp affixed upon the certificate, as well as a nice reminder letter.

Is that true integrity then? You think the person deserves to be a fully fledged blackbelt, equal to all the other over 18s with the same ranking, but because your Hombu says you can't you won't give them the full rank but settle for the lesser(?) rank of junior blackbelt. And lets' face it, it really is a lesser rank otherwise why distinguish between the junior and senior ranking at all? Is it true integrity to know that a student deserves a rank but then deny them it because your leadership says so.

Not getting at you Sensei, just throwing this out there for a bit of discussion

[sensei8]

Good business includes standing up for what you believe in. However, if staying in business means, as part of change, that I HAVE TO promote ever child and/or adult to BB to stay in business...well...I'd rather be out of business!

My integrity and my martial arts isn't for sale!

That's a great attitude to have. But what if your integrity tells you that an under 18 truly deserves a bbelt?

Then I'll present that student, who's under 18 years old, a Junior Black Belt, not, a full-fledged Yudansha until that student reaches 18 years old because I'd still be under the umbrella of the Hombu! My Hombu won't allow it, it's just that plain and it's just that simple. Oh sure, I can issue any certificate I want that's under my authority, but, I might as well've done the certificate on toilet paper because the Hombu would send it right back to me with a big INVALID stamp affixed upon the certificate, as well as a nice reminder letter.

Is that true integrity then? You think the person deserves to be a fully fledged blackbelt, equal to all the other over 18s with the same ranking, but because your Hombu says you can't you won't give them the full rank but settle for the lesser(?) rank of junior blackbelt. And lets' face it, it really is a lesser rank otherwise why distinguish between the junior and senior ranking at all? Is it true integrity to know that a student deserves a rank but then deny them it because your leadership says so.

Not getting at you Sensei, just throwing this out there for a bit of discussion

I know you're not getting at me. So, for a bit of discussion...

Yes, it is true integrity. Just as it's true integrity for one to obey the laws of the land, I, therefore, obey the laws of my Hombu. Like the laws of the land, whereas the law says what we can and/or what we can't do, and we obey them whether we like these laws or not, otherwise we find ourselves in violation of the law, and find ourselves in jail, rightfully so. In that, I obey the laws of the Hombu, just as any member of any martial arts association does, not because they agree with every rule/law, but because said law/rule exists and it's right that they do so because they're law/rule abiding individuals.

JBB is a lesser rank? OK! In that, so is every other rank before the JBB and as the JBB is to the ranks that are above the JBB!! Should the terms Senpai and Kohai be viewed in the same context as the JBB? No, and neither should the JBB! They're accepted and therefore they're willingly practiced. Should the terms Sun Bae Nim and Hu Bae Nim be viewed in the same context as the JBB? No, and neither should the JBB! They're accepted and therefore they're willingly practiced as well. It's a lesser rank in only the terms of the Yudansha, but it still deserves respect unconditionally and without reservation. Who's lesser? The rank or the practitioner who wears and/or awards said JBB? Neither!!

Again, it is, imho, true integrity to deny rank, no matter my opinion, because the leadership says so! Why? The act of true integrity, in this instance, is that I'm accountable to the rules and the regulations and the Articles and the By-Laws of the Hombu. Therefore, it's also an act of integrity to refuse to engage in behavior that evades responsibility. My responsibility is to my students, to my Dai-Soke, and to my Hombu; seperate but equally. My responsiblity across the board means that I willingly obey what my Hombu dictates, not just because it's expected of me, but because it's correct and just. To do otherwise, is an act of dishonesty across the board!!

I've never told my students, nor have I ever implied to my students that JBB is a lesser rank and therefore they're a lessar karateka. My students understand that the JBB is lessar than that of Shodan and Nidan and Sandan and Yondan, and Godan and Rokudan and Nanadan and Hachidan and Kudan and Judan. And in that, my students understand that the JBB is greater than Jukyu and Kukyu and Hachikyu and Nanakyu and Rokyu and Gokyu and Yonkyu and Sankyu and Nikyu and Ikkyu. My students understand that the number 0 comes before the number 1 and so on and so on. My students aren't concerned with how the world views their JBB. My students are proud of their JBB and what it stands for, as well as the hard work it took for them to achieve it. Therefore, I view the JBB as nothing more than just another rank, and in that, I'm very proud of my students who've earned the JBB!!

Is it right to deny a student rank if in the course of a testing cycle that student fails? Yes!! Why? Because the Articles and the By-Laws of the Hombu dictates it to be so. In that, I deny the Yudansha rank to my students and I therefore award the JBB because the Articles and the By-Laws of the Hombu dictates it to be so as well!! These are the wishes of our Soke!!

It boils down to one thing; rules and regulations!!

[bushido_man96]

I see both the point that DWx is making, and the reasoning behind the adherence to the rules of the Hombu that Bob is beholden to. In life, there are always things we like better, and things that we wish were different. At times, a comprise and a concession on one or another's part is better than segregation of the two over a small matter. But then again, such is the type of politics that divide the Martial Artists.

[DWx]

Yes, it is true integrity. Just as it's true integrity for one to obey the laws of the land, I, therefore, obey the laws of my Hombu. Like the laws of the land, whereas the law says what we can and/or what we can't do, and we obey them whether we like these laws or not, otherwise we find ourselves in violation of the law, and find ourselves in jail, rightfully so. In that, I obey the laws of the Hombu, just as any member of any martial arts association does, not because they agree with every rule/law, but because said law/rule exists and it's right that they do so because they're law/rule abiding individuals.

Laws are not always 100% right. Less than a hundred years ago women didn't have the vote in many countries. Slavery was abolished not so long ago. Laws are changing all the time. So if there was a situation where the under 18 really deserved an over 18 belt, maybe its time for your Hombu to change its rules.

Again, it is, imho, true integrity to deny rank, no matter my opinion, because the leadership says so! Why? The act of true integrity, in this instance, is that I'm accountable to the rules and the regulations and the Articles and the By-Laws of the Hombu. Therefore, it's also an act of integrity to refuse to engage in behavior that evades responsibility. My responsibility is to my students, to my Dai-Soke, and to my Hombu; seperate but equally. My responsiblity across the board means that I willingly obey what my Hombu dictates, not just because it's expected of me, but because it's correct and just. To do otherwise, is an act of dishonesty across the board!!

Well argued. I guess I would agree with you that being responsible is having integrity.

I've never told my students, nor have I ever implied to my students that JBB is a lesser rank and therefore they're a lessar karateka. My students understand that the JBB is lessar than that of Shodan and Nidan and Sandan and Yondan, and Godan and Rokudan and Nanadan and Hachidan and Kudan and Judan. And in that, my students understand that the JBB is greater than Jukyu and Kukyu and Hachikyu and Nanakyu and Rokyu and Gokyu and Yonkyu and Sankyu and Nikyu and Ikkyu. My students understand that the number 0 comes before the number 1 and so on and so on. My students aren't concerned with how the world views their JBB. My students are proud of their JBB and what it stands for, as well as the hard work it took for them to achieve it. Therefore, I view the JBB as nothing more than just another rank, and in that, I'm very proud of my students who've earned the JBB!!

By your own admission holding a junior blackbelt is less than that of a full Shodan. So it is a lesser rank is it not? If your, judgement, all you morals and principles, your integrity, tells you that an under 18 fulfils the same criteria as a similar student who is 18 or over, how is it right to deny them the same rank? Its like saying "Sorry kid, you passed just as well as Mr X but because you are a couple of years younger you get this half belt instead".

Fair enough that a JBB ranks higher than the kyu grades but why should it rank lower than a full 1st dan if they did the same test? That's just creating an extra rank for someone who happens to be talented and hardworking at a young age.

Is it right to deny a student rank if in the course of a testing cycle that student fails? Yes!! Why? Because the Articles and the By-Laws of the Hombu dictates it to be so. In that, I deny the Yudansha rank to my students and I therefore award the JBB because the Articles and the By-Laws of the Hombu dictates it to be so as well!! These are the wishes of our Soke!!

This is a different case altogether if a student fails the exam then of course they shouldn't get the belt. If however the 15, 16 or 17 yr old passes the blackbelt exam on the same terms as an 18 year old shouldn't they also get the same belt? They did the same test after all.

Edited August 4, 2010 by DWx

[sensei8]

I see both the point that DWx is making, and the reasoning behind the adherence to the rules of the Hombu that Bob is beholden to. In life, there are always things we like better, and things that we wish were different. At times, a comprise and a concession on one or another's part is better than segregation of the two over a small matter. But then again, such is the type of politics that divide the Martial Artists.

I wholeheartedly agree!!

[sensei8]

For me, this has been a great discussion, no matter what side of the coin one maybe on. In that, I'm in agreement with BOTH sides, but, as Brian has stated; I'm beholden to things that aren't in my sole control.

Nonetheless...

sensei8 wrote:

Yes, it is true integrity. Just as it's true integrity for one to obey the laws of the land, I, therefore, obey the laws of my Hombu. Like the laws of the land, whereas the law says what we can and/or what we can't do, and we obey them whether we like these laws or not, otherwise we find ourselves in violation of the law, and find ourselves in jail, rightfully so. In that, I obey the laws of the Hombu, just as any member of any martial arts association does, not because they agree with every rule/law, but because said law/rule exists and it's right that they do so because they're law/rule abiding individuals.

Laws are not always 100% right. Less than a hundred years ago women didn't have the vote in many countries. Slavery was abolished not so long ago. Laws are changing all the time. So if there was a situation where the under 18 really deserved an over 18 belt, maybe its time for your Hombu to change its rules.

Yes, you're right; laws aren't always 100% right, BUT, they're still LAW! Again, you're right; laws are changing all of the time, and you're right also when you suggest that it's time for my Hombu to change its rules. Boy oh boy, I've tried to do just that for over 15 years, since I joined the Board of Regents, but, not once have the votes been on my side. Therefore, this "law"/rule is STILL what it is; unchanged! Now that I'm only a Senior Advisor and no longer the Kaicho, the remaining/new leadership will have to make the necessary changes as they see fit to do so or to not do so!

sensei8 wrote:

I've never told my students, nor have I ever implied to my students that JBB is a lesser rank and therefore they're a lessar karateka. My students understand that the JBB is lessar than that of Shodan and Nidan and Sandan and Yondan, and Godan and Rokudan and Nanadan and Hachidan and Kudan and Judan. And in that, my students understand that the JBB is greater than Jukyu and Kukyu and Hachikyu and Nanakyu and Rokyu and Gokyu and Yonkyu and Sankyu and Nikyu and Ikkyu. My students understand that the number 0 comes before the number 1 and so on and so on. My students aren't concerned with how the world views their JBB. My students are proud of their JBB and what it stands for, as well as the hard work it took for them to achieve it. Therefore, I view the JBB as nothing more than just another rank, and in that, I'm very proud of my students who've earned the JBB!!

By your own admission holding a junior blackbelt is less than that of a full Shodan. So it is a lesser rank is it not? If your, judgement, all you morals and principles, your integrity, tells you that an under 18 fulfils the same criteria as a similar student who is 18 or over, how is it right to deny them the same rank? Its like saying "Sorry kid, you passed just as well as Mr X but because you are a couple of years younger you get this half belt instead".

Fair enough that a JBB ranks higher than the kyu grades but why should it rank lower than a full 1st dan if they did the same test? That's just creating an extra rank for someone who happens to be talented and hardworking at a young age.

Yes, because it is less. Shodan is less, Nidan is less, Sandan is less, etc; because 'it' is!! Because 'it' isn't the rank above 'it'!! By the reason I've just stated; yes JBB is a lesser rank, and for no other reason!! It is right to deny Shodan to those under 18 years old, and I thought I made this clear before, is because the Articles and the By-Laws, that were created by our Soke, say so without any ambiquity whatsoever!!

It's not like saying "Sorry kid" because the testing syllabus for those under 18 years old ISN'T the same as those that are 18 years old and older...IT'S NOT THE SAME!! No! It's like saying "Congrats on your JBB"!! That's what a JBB tested for and that student under 18 years old DIDN'T take the Shodan testing syllabus, no, they took the JBB testing syllabus...as it was created by our Soke!!

sensei8 wrote:

Is it right to deny a student rank if in the course of a testing cycle that student fails? Yes!! Why? Because the Articles and the By-Laws of the Hombu dictates it to be so. In that, I deny the Yudansha rank to my students and I therefore award the JBB because the Articles and the By-Laws of the Hombu dictates it to be so as well!! These are the wishes of our Soke!!

This is a different case altogether if a student fails the exam then of course they shouldn't get the belt. If however the 15, 16 or 17 yr old passes the blackbelt exam on the same terms as an 18 year old shouldn't they also get the same belt? They did the same test after all.

JBB candidates DON'T ever take the same test as a candidate for the Shodan!!

[DWx]

Why can't under 18s take the same test? what were your Soke's reasons for that rule? And how do the tests differ? Surely that again is the same sort of unfairness because you are still stopping the under 18 from achieving the rank even though they may be equally as competent.

When you tried to change the rules as Kaicho, did the rest of the board give reasons for their refusal?

btw the way, on my earlier post I meant "well argued" rather than "we argued" stupid L key keeps sticking on my keyboard, edited it now

[sensei8]

And the discussion continues...

The reasons of my Soke are HIS reasons and HIS alone, and in that, he wasn't interested in our opinions nor did he seek our approval. More than likely, his reasons won't be accepted and/or approved of by those outside of the Shindokan Hombu. It's all good!

Why can't under 18s take the same test?

Because our Articles and By-Laws don't allow it!

what were your Soke's reasons for that rule?

Because they're children! Here's our Soke's own words..."We know of many children who are excellent in the physical aspects of Shindokan and we might call them Junior Black Belt to recognize their proficiency, but they are still children. In the Okinawan/Japanese systems, wearing a black belt is a sign of maturity; in other words, the student has demonstrated mature physical growth, knowledge of the physical basics of Shindokan, has demonstrated over time an ability to make sound judgments thus revealing mental maturity. None of this is accomplished very quickly even if the student is an adult." I don't, you don't, or anybody else for that fact doesn't have to agree with my Soke, and that's fine, but, on the other hand, he doesn't care what I, you, and/or anybody else thinks and/or says. It is what it is because Soke said so!

Some TKD federations/organizations use the JBB based on age requirements related to dan promotions, and may grant younger students pum (JBB) ranks rather than dan ranks until they reach a certain age. Hhhmmmm, a certain age; aka and/or hence, children. This tells me that Okinawan/Japanese styles of the martial arts aren't the only ones using the JBB.

And how do the tests differ?

The JBB, Shodan-ho, syllabus approximates the adult but gives greater scope for grading and hence differentiation between levels of ability. The JBB syllabus is markedly different as it focuses not on civilian defence but on developing foundational coordination, core body strength and kinaesthetic awareness. All of these are crucial to development in the martial arts as a teenager or adult, however they are just as important in daily life.

For an example, during testing, a Shodan-ho only executes Kata's Pinan Shodan - Pinan Godan and Naihanchi Shodan, whereas a Shodan executes Kata's Pinan Shodan - Pinan Godan, Naifanchi Shodan - Naifanchi Nidan, and Kusanku-Dai.

In short; the Three K's are shorter for the Shodan-ho, whereas the Three K's are longer for the Shodan.

When you tried to change the rules as Kaicho, did the rest of the board give reasons for their refusal?

Nope. Only a vote of yeas and nays were allowed at the final petitional vote. Yet, in the arguementive sessions the majority of them sided with our Soke's reasons. Only, the then Kancho, one member of the Board of Regents, and I have been opposed to the Shodan-ho Articles and By-Laws for these many years. We offered our petitions, seperate and together, and then the vote came; the three of us were unanimously voted against...again!

btw the way, on my earlier post I meant "well argued" rather than "we argued" stupid L key keeps sticking on my keyboard, edited it now

Ok, that makes your sentence more understandable, thanks. The 'R' key on my keyboard sticks, so I can understand.

[JiuJitsuNation]

wearing a black belt is a sign of maturity

As with many things in life. It's ok to make them wait and for this to symbolize a right of passage into adulthood.

This would insure more quality control as well.