If One Man Can do It...

[bushido_man96]

It's not the money, per se. It's the honor. If one day we will be used to babysit kids in a belt-mill McDojo, shouldn't we be paid for it? And if we are not to be paid, shouldn't our training at least be free? Just for the sake of honor?

Everyone will have a different answer here. Some will feel that they have a "duty" to teach for their instructor, or a "responibility" brought on by rank to do the same, without pay. Others will feel that their time is worth money, and will want to be paid for doing it. I don't think there is anything wrong with either option.

But those aren't really my questions. My question is this: what's to stop us from getting our 2nd dan, and starting our own Taekwondo school? Or Karate school for that matter?

Nothing really. What you want to consider, though, are what your credentials will be.

The ITA did it. Choi did it. Lee did it. In fact, everyone we revere has done it. I have three grandsons. The youngest is five and he's already taking Taekwondo. What's to stop us from starting our own school, our own style? We'd probably be in our early fifties when we were ready.

Nothing really stopping you at all. But, when you look at those who have done it, look at what they had to offer, brought to the table, and the credentials that they had when they did it.

[Martialart]

Nothing really stopping you at all. But, when you look at those who have done it, look at what they had to offer, brought to the table, and the credentials that they had when they did it.

If I did that, I'd start a school now. Bruce Lee had nothing. He wasn't a black belt in anything. He took Wing Chung for a bit, but never really advanced in it. He was an actor primarily. People don't get this, or don't want to. But what Lee had was an original idea about martial arts that came from a rather small exposure to it. In other words, exactly what a movie actor would need.

I'm not criticizing JKD. I know nothing about it, except that it was created by a very inexperienced and young martial artist who was first and foremost an actor whose moves are speeded up on the film to look faster than they are. Those are the facts.

JKD may be great for this very reason.

As for me. I have a long history with Karate and Taekwondo, but because of the military, I moved around too much to get a black belt, but now it looks like we'll be able to. I have an original psychological approach to training that has worked wonders for me--I think it could work for others, too.

I probably wouldn't start a new style, but would instead teach Taekwondo and affiliate with some Taekwondo organization (though it wouldn't be the International Taekwondo Alliance).

So, in truth, I probably bring more to the table than Bruce Lee did, though chances are, I will never be as successful as he was. But who knows? Right time, right place.

[ps1]

There is no reason why the two of you should not open your own school once the two of you have developed the technical expertise in your style. Especially if you don't care about being under your current organization.

I don't think you should create your own style. If your rank is in TKD, than you should teach TKD.

Well, let me ask you this. If a person learns TKD. And then they decide to go and teach it on there own, is there some limitation on whether or not you can teach ITF forms or WTF forms? I know that TKD is a fairly generic term, like karate. Can a person teach WTF forms and not be part of the WTF?

Teach the forms you know, even if they are not from your art. As long as you can provide proper context for what you're teaching. My main point is that if you're BB is in TKD (whatever kind), that's the art you should give rank in, even if you're no longer under ITF or WTF or Whatever.

If I hang my 3rd degree certificate on the wall and it says Shotokan, and suddenly I tell my students they are learning JKD...that just seems fishy. Even if I add things or take something away, I would still call it shotokan or at least karate.

[sensei8]

You know the saying: If one man can do it, another man can do it.

Just because one man can do it, it doesn't mean that one should do it, or wants to do it. The operative word is CAN. Surely one can, but only after one is extremely well versed in it. As far as teaching the martial arts are concerned, my firm answer is...NO! Not all black belts can teach; nor should they.

But those aren't really my questions. My question is this: what's to stop us from getting our 2nd dan, and starting our own Taekwondo school? Or Karate school for that matter?

Nothing can stop you....nothing! It's called Free Enterprise! You can open your own school whenever you want to, no matter your rank and/or your level of experience and the like.

But...

Will someone want to learn from someone with very little experience? I'm not saying that learning from someone with just a 1st Dan would be a waste of time and/or money. No. Learning from a 1st Dan would be ok, not great, but surely not a bad thing. Looking at the other side of that same coin, why not? LACK OF KNOWLEDGE/EXPERIENCE, that's why! The norm of being able to teach the martial arts effectively, compidently, and educationally on ones own is Sandan/3rd Dan. Why? At this point in the Sandan's training they have, for example, learned 514 Self Defense Techniques and Variations & 19 Katas. The time required to attain Sandan is approximately 5 years of training after receiving Shodan. Sandan's have been studying and/or teaching for approximately 10 or 11 years to achieve the Sandan Rank. This time frame is approximate and denotes continuous training. That type of knowledge and experience can't be denied and/or mocked at.

Even you yourself said that you were only interested in earning/obtaining a Il dan/Cho dan. Imho, this isn't enough palatable knowledge/experience to teach the martial arts, let alone, effective enough. In your OP of "1st Dan is Enough!", found in the "General Martial Arts" forum, you stated this...

I've decided not to go above the 1st dan black belt in our school.

That being said, you won't be a 2nd Dan when you start your own style of the martial arts, unless you first, earn that 2nd Dan. I'm not mocking you at all! I'm just trying to keep it real. You might get your 2nd Dan from some other organization, and if you do, is that still going to be enough knowledge/experience to do your future students any good at all in your new style of the martial arts? Maybe, but, I seriously doubt that. Isn't it better to be well versed, as opposed to being just...versed?

The ITA did it. Choi did it. Lee did it. In fact, everyone we revere has done it. I have three grandsons. The youngest is five and he's already taking Taekwondo. What's to stop us from starting our own school, our own style? We'd probably be in our early fifties when we were ready.

Sure, Lee, I'm assuming you're talking about Bruce Lee. If so, Bruce at his death had ONLY 19 total years of knowledge and experience. Bruce was the exception to every rule because he was an exceptional, no, an extraordinary martial artist. That's was an extremely rare occurance providing what he achieved in the martial arts, and quite possibly, one that won't be repeated in the near or far future...maybe! There's another saying....Don't rush perfection. Key: Don't RUSH!

Now, I'm not sold on the idea at all. Not at all. But we're not going to be instructors for the ITA country club. I'll just get my black belt and work out for the rest of my life, if we stay with them--I don't care, but what if a dynasty is our destiny? How would I know?

You might be the next Bruce Lee, and if you are, I'm surely not going to stand in your way or in anybody's way at all. That's not for me to say, that's for you to say.

These are my opinions!

[sensei8]

There is no reason why the two of you should not open your own school once the two of you have developed the technical expertise in your style. Especially if you don't care about being under your current organization.

I don't think you should create your own style. If your rank is in TKD, than you should teach TKD.

Well, let me ask you this. If a person learns TKD. And then they decide to go and teach it on there own, is there some limitation on whether or not you can teach ITF forms or WTF forms? I know that TKD is a fairly generic term, like karate. Can a person teach WTF forms and not be part of the WTF?

Teach the forms you know, even if they are not from your art. As long as you can provide proper context for what you're teaching. My main point is that if you're BB is in TKD (whatever kind), that's the art you should give rank in, even if you're no longer under ITF or WTF or Whatever.

If I hang my 3rd degree certificate on the wall and it says Shotokan, and suddenly I tell my students they are learning JKD...that just seems fishy. Even if I add things or take something away, I would still call it shotokan or at least karate.

Solid post and I wholeheartedly concur!

[sensei8]

If I did that, I'd start a school now. Bruce Lee had nothing. He wasn't a black belt in anything. He took Wing Chung for a bit, but never really advanced in it. He was an actor primarily. People don't get this, or don't want to. But what Lee had was an original idea about martial arts that came from a rather small exposure to it. In other words, exactly what a movie actor would need.

Please forgive me, but, Bruce Lee WASN'T "an actor primarily"! Bruce was an exceptional martial artist and this isn't me just saying it, no, it's a widely known throughout the world that this is FACT! I just simply refuse to accept any notions that Bruce was an actor first, and a martial artist second. Bruce used the movies and such to showcase his martial arts knowledge/experience.

Bruce was a martial artist first and foremost!

EDITS: Good grief, I can't spell at all....sorry!

Edited May 23, 2010 by sensei8

[sensei8]

It's not the money, per se. It's the honor. If one day we will be used to babysit kids in a belt-mill McDojo, shouldn't we be paid for it? And if we are not to be paid, shouldn't our training at least be free? Just for the sake of honor?

Everyone will have a different answer here. Some will feel that they have a "duty" to teach for their instructor, or a "responibility" brought on by rank to do the same, without pay. Others will feel that their time is worth money, and will want to be paid for doing it. I don't think there is anything wrong with either option.

But those aren't really my questions. My question is this: what's to stop us from getting our 2nd dan, and starting our own Taekwondo school? Or Karate school for that matter?

Nothing really. What you want to consider, though, are what your credentials will be.

The ITA did it. Choi did it. Lee did it. In fact, everyone we revere has done it. I have three grandsons. The youngest is five and he's already taking Taekwondo. What's to stop us from starting our own school, our own style? We'd probably be in our early fifties when we were ready.

Nothing really stopping you at all. But, when you look at those who have done it, look at what they had to offer, brought to the table, and the credentials that they had when they did it.

Another solid post and again, I wholeheartedly concur!

[Martialart]

Teach the forms you know, even if they are not from your art. As long as you can provide proper context for what you're teaching. My main point is that if you're BB is in TKD (whatever kind), that's the art you should give rank in, even if you're no longer under ITF or WTF or Whatever.

If I hang my 3rd degree certificate on the wall and it says Shotokan, and suddenly I tell my students they are learning JKD...that just seems fishy. Even if I add things or take something away, I would still call it shotokan or at least karate.

Yes, that makes good sense. That's what we'll do when and if the day ever comes. Thanks.

[tonydee]

The instructors teach for free. No...that's not true. The instructors have paid through the nose to become instructors and are used for free to babysit the junior classes for the most part. Only a few of the senior instructors are allowed to teach the adult class.

We can start training as instructors at blue belt, but of course there are costs involved.

It's not the money, per se. It's the honor. If one day we will be used to babysit kids in a belt-mill McDojo, shouldn't we be paid for it? And if we are not to be paid, shouldn't our training at least be free? Just for the sake of honor?

Well, in my original school you weren't an instructor unless you had your own dojang(s). An instructor would have at most one assistant, but many had none. Most instructors weren't paid, but then the student fees weren't high either.

To me, this makes sense - why would the adult class be taught by anyone other than the most qualified people available? Why should there be a large pool of half-trained instructors under them? Is the school expecting massive instructor turnover? Massive growth? Probably not on a level that requires that - sounds more like they've found the instructor training profitable and the free assistance with the mundane junior classes convenient... a terrible attitude. Even our master instructor would teach white belts as readily as black.

But those aren't really my questions. My question is this: what's to stop us from getting our 2nd dan, and starting our own Taekwondo school? Or Karate school for that matter?

Legally, nothing. Ethically, possibly a lot. If I've got the gist of it from the pieces presented in the thread, seems you're postulating taking a basic level of martial arts knowledge and mixing in some (military?) training psychology and exercises? That's an interesting experiment, and I can only hope that if you proceed one day you inform the prospective students that that is what they'd be signing up for - not a martial arts experience as ever implied by the name "taekwondo", but some hybrid training system you're experimenting with. Frankly, I'd feel reassured if you broadened your training experience massively to see how other schools are already mixing psychological elements and non-traditional training methods - you would probably be better off joining such a school, rather than creating your own.

The ITA did it. Choi did it. Lee did it. In fact, everyone we revere has done it. I have three grandsons. The youngest is five and he's already taking Taekwondo. What's to stop us from starting our own school, our own style? We'd probably be in our early fifties when we were ready.

I know nothing about the ITA. Choi did do it, but with the the power of a military dictatorship behind him, and the assistance of many talented people who trained full time. And even low dan ranks in karate at the time were probably worth a lot more than they are in most schools now. Despite that, much was lost in the process - proper hip mechanics, speed and precision in stances and footwork, many of Shotokan's excellent block/attack drills with partners, conditioning exercises, an inestimable wealth of kata, insight and refinement....

Now, I'm not sold on the idea at all. Not at all. But we're not going to be instructors for the ITA country club. I'll just get my black belt and work out for the rest of my life, if we stay with them--I don't care, but what if a dynasty is our destiny? How would I know?

You'd know because you'd find yourself master of the art you actually studied, clearly understanding the pros and cons of each aspect of each movement, applying them effortlessly against other instructors and students, eventually seeing gaps and overlooked opportunities either in the technique or the training methods - and that's not one sudden realisation - but a long process that needs to be proven and refined by experience actually teaching and seeing what the students can adopt successfully.

There's senseis in here and students in here. I sure would like to read your opinions.

Ambition is good, but my honest opinion is that while your intent may seem to make sense in the context of the club at which you train, in the wider martial arts world it would seem very premature to abandon training in other systems and try to create your own. I thought I had a pretty good handle on things when I was a green belt too - little did I know... .

Cheers,

Tony

[Martialart]

Ambition is good, but my honest opinion is that while your intent may seem to make sense in the context of the club at which you train, in the wider martial arts world it would seem very premature to abandon training in other systems and try to create your own. I thought I had a pretty good handle on things when I was a green belt too - little did I know... .

Cheers,

Tony

Yeah, I don't think I would start my own style. I think I would stick with traditional Taekwondo.

And I've been lots of colors of belts. white, yellow, green, blue, red, back to white and now green again. I know enough to know the wheel is not worth re-inventing.