1st Dan is Enough!

[DWx]

I hate to criticise what people do but I'm sorry Martialart, from what I've seen on Youtube and elsewhere on the net, Ho-Am TKD is far from ITF style. In fact from watching a lot of ITA forms videos, I'd say it was more akin to WTF style based on the way the stepping is done and how the moves are executed, the ready positions and the like. Eg. Here is a guy doing what looks like the ITF form Juche (although a lot of the moves have been modified) the

, compare it to Juche ITF way and say Koryo

. I'd say it was more similar to the latter.

First off let me compliment you on an excellent post comparing similar level forms from three different styles of Taekwondo. I appreciated watching them and comparing them.

But I guess it's a matter of opinion, since you have essentially three different forms represented. The power and decisiveness of the ITA and ITF are similar as compared to the WTF where most of the form is executed from a walking stance and seems more free-flowing. I think if we weren't comparing an adolescent to an older and more experienced man (ITA vs. ITF) the forms would seem more like one another.

What might be interesting is to compare simpler forms. in the ITA we do Chong-Ji and Do-San, and so does the ITF, I think, granted they look somewhat different from each other. Another thing to consider is that ITA's Ho-Am Taekwondo states that it is derived from General Choi's style. It's safe to say, you'll never hear a WTF person claim that.

Also, consider things such as the round kick. WTF kicks with the instep. ITF and ITA with the ball of the foot. ITF and ITA both emphasize escape techniques and self-defense. I was in Sang Lee's WTF school in Colorado Springs for over a year (he was many times the head coach of the Olympic team) and we didn't learn one self-defense technique.

Also, the sparring is different, as in what's allowed and how it's scored in competition. ITA uses the traditional 3 point, point and break type contest and strikes to the head are counted.

Having said all that, I will grant you that I'm new to ITA. However, I probably couldn't have attended a school much more steeped in WTF than Sang Lee's. And the Taekwondo I'm learning is not the same thing. It's much more like Karate, which is much more like the ITF style. Nonetheless, I will certainly grant you that there are significant differences in the hyungs and the way they are executed.

Well I picked forms I thought were similar. That ITA form I chose was basically Juche apart from they've made minor changes such as the direction of the stepping (eg, ITA go forward on the twin knifehand, while ITF keeps going backward) and swapped some of the kicks around. Maybe its easier to tell once you've learnt one of the versions first. Watch them side-by-side and you'll see they're 90% the same. I also picked Koryo for comparison as I know its a WTF form that contains kicks and a lot of the same blocks as used find in Juche and its for a similar belt level. Anyway the actual ordering of the moves doesn't matter. Its how the moves are done which I'm using as a basis for comparison.

As far as skill level is concerned I don't now who you'd regard to be one of the best technical performers for ITA so I just picked a reasonably good version. But like I said, the actual performance itself isn't what I'm trying to compare but the stepping and ready-positions and such like. Maybe comparing easier forms such as Chon-Ji would be better but I couldn't seem to find any ITA versions. Do you know of any?

For the kicking, ITF does sometimes kick with the instep. I don't know if WTF sometimes kick with the ball of the foot. But the ball of the foot is pretty common in a lot of styles anyway and not specific to either TKD or ITF. As for what the styles focus on, you can find ITF schools that focus mainly on the competition and sport side of it and you can find WTF schools that focus on self-defence. That'll just depend on individual experience.

Maybe this is a subject for another topic as it would probably be very interesting comparing the different styles. Might even be worth looking at ATA style vs ITA as they are pretty similar in a lot of respects including the marketing side. Or even TAGB (a British org) which again is very similar.

[sensei8]

Martialart wrote:

And I love the way everyone shot down my idea of black belt as a noble institution but now waits in line to tell me how important it is to progress up as many dans as possible.

These two things aren't the same thing, not even close, they're as far away as the east is from the west. The Yudansha obi is one thing all by itself, and Dan rank(s) are another thing all by itself.

A shoe lace isn't the shoe, and in that, they both are one, but, they're not the same thing! Each item has a purpose, one supports the other but they're independant of each other.

I don't think any member here said that you and/or anyone should get as many dans as possible! I know that I didn't because it would be harmful to your martial arts maturity, imho.

Again, the black belt and/or the Dan ranks are unimportant to a martial artist. Why? There just things. These things, the Yudansha obi and the Dan ranks, are tangible things, and a martial artists seeks out for the intangable things all of their lives.

[Patrick]

I think you should set your personal goals in the arts based on what you want to get out of them and persue them. If that's 1st dan, good for you. Just don't be afraid to modify the goals down the road if your mindset shifts.

That sounds like a good principle to apply in the martial arts or anything.

Thank you everyone who has replied to this thread for generally keeping it on a respectful level. I appreciate it.

I understand that this topic may be sensitive for some, but my hope is that this is a community where we can explore these issues respectfully and find, understand and respect our individual differences.

Thanks,

Patrick

[ps1]

Interesting!

However, there's more to the martial arts than just learning the basics; there's still the intermediate and advanced levels.

I completely disagree with this statement. The "advanced" techniques are just basics with better timing and more strategy employed. The rank of the person employing them is rather insignificant compared to the time on the mat training them.

I never liked the comparison of advanced degrees of black belt to the degrees offered in college. There's simply no comparing a black belt of any level to a physician or astrophysicist or lawyer. In the end...we're just not that important.

[bushido_man96]

I'm not sure there is fault in too much of your thinking here. There is nothing wrong with wanting to get just a black belt.

You do mention, though, about "loss of face" and citing that as a reason not to advance. I don't think that is a reason to consider it at all. People of different ranks will exhibit different skills, and it isn't always equal. Age and experience can play a lot into it. If remaining a 1st dan to save face to higher ranked losses, or, better yet, to make you look really good when you beat a higher rank, is more of an ego-soothing idea to me, but that is just how it strikes me.

[Martialart]

I'm not sure there is fault in too much of your thinking here. There is nothing wrong with wanting to get just a black belt.

You do mention, though, about "loss of face" and citing that as a reason not to advance. I don't think that is a reason to consider it at all. People of different ranks will exhibit different skills, and it isn't always equal. Age and experience can play a lot into it. If remaining a 1st dan to save face to higher ranked losses, or, better yet, to make you look really good when you beat a higher rank, is more of an ego-soothing idea to me, but that is just how it strikes me.

I hear you. It's just that if you're a seventh dan senior grand master, and you spar with one of your 1st dans and they basically prevail or evenly match you, then it's going to cause a deflation of the meaning of "senior grand master," and that's not going to look good to your class. It's going to pull the curtain back on the Oz, if you will.

Whereas, if black belts were just black belts with more or less seniority, then no implied promise is made by terms like, "Senior Chief Grand Master Sensei." Or, if it's fully understood that the advanced dan ranks come with time and service to the organization alone, then no problem.

I intend to stop at 1st dan, because in my opinion, to go above that in the organization I belong to is simply a mugs game.

[Chitsu]

I intend to stop at 1st dan, because in my opinion, to go above that in the organization I belong to is simply a mugs game.

If you really think that then you have to leave that group imo, as clearly they give you nothing to aspire to.

Its a no-brainer really.

Chitsu

[sensei8]

Interesting!

However, there's more to the martial arts than just learning the basics; there's still the intermediate and advanced levels.

I completely disagree with this statement. The "advanced" techniques are just basics with better timing and more strategy employed. The rank of the person employing them is rather insignificant compared to the time on the mat training them.

I never liked the comparison of advanced degrees of black belt to the degrees offered in college. There's simply no comparing a black belt of any level to a physician or astrophysicist or lawyer. In the end...we're just not that important.

It's all good!

Our Soke had compiled an enormous amount in the curriculum/syllabus from 10th Kyu to Hachidan. When he came to writing and the like about the Dan curriculum/syllabus, he did label them this way...

Jukyu-Ikkyu = Beginner level [in this level; beginner, intermediate, and advanced Kihon, Kata, and Kumite exists]

Shodan-Godan = Intermedate level

Rokudan-Hachidan = Advanced level

[No curriculum/syllabus for Kudan-Judan]

This is why I stated them as I did in my post. Truly, it's not for me and/or for anyone else to infer that our way is incorrect when we list beginner, intermediate, and advanced levels, even in the Dan, in our curriculum/syllabus because Shindokan was his creation to list/label them/it as he saw fit.

While my college degree analogy might've been off base, I still believe that that poster understood its meaning. In that, the most important belt is not the black belt. No! The most important belt, for those of us in the kyu/dan system is the White belt. Without the White belt, there are no other belts.

Besides, all of us like this and all of us like that and all of us don't like this and all of us don't like that; whatever the this and the that are.

[still kicking]

sensei8 wrote:

Besides, all of us like this and all of us like that and all of us don't like this and all of us don't like that; whatever the this and the that are.

Yes, but it's a good thing, otherwise we would have no need for these forums to argue about (discuss) it all!

[sensei8]

I'm not sure there is fault in too much of your thinking here. There is nothing wrong with wanting to get just a black belt.

You do mention, though, about "loss of face" and citing that as a reason not to advance. I don't think that is a reason to consider it at all. People of different ranks will exhibit different skills, and it isn't always equal. Age and experience can play a lot into it. If remaining a 1st dan to save face to higher ranked losses, or, better yet, to make you look really good when you beat a higher rank, is more of an ego-soothing idea to me, but that is just how it strikes me.

I hear you. It's just that if you're a seventh dan senior grand master, and you spar with one of your 1st dans and they basically prevail or evenly match you, then it's going to cause a deflation of the meaning of "senior grand master," and that's not going to look good to your class. It's going to pull the curtain back on the Oz, if you will.

Whereas, if black belts were just black belts with more or less seniority, then no implied promise is made by terms like, "Senior Chief Grand Master Sensei." Or, if it's fully understood that the advanced dan ranks come with time and service to the organization alone, then no problem.

I intend to stop at 1st dan, because in my opinion, to go above that in the organization I belong to is simply a mugs game.

Nopper! Why? Imho, nobody wins everytime at everything. If the shodan beats the "senior grand master" at will, well, then I'd see your point, and I'd agree with it as well. Yet, if the shodan got the best of the "senior grand master" from time to time, well, one can't win all of the time everytime.

You see, once in a great while a white belt beats the black belt. Why? The white belts awkwardness and unpolished everything and fettered and unknowing broken rhythm gets the black belt by surprize from time to time. When this happens, and it happens a lot, this doesn't disgrace and/or discredit that black belt, it just happens from time to time.

The mature black belt just smiles and acknowledges that white belt for a job well done, AND, a great technique. See!? The black belt is STILL learning just like that white belt; the learning never ever stops no matter the rank and no matter the knowledge/experience.

EDITS: Spelling errors!

Edited May 24, 2010 by sensei8