1st Dan is Enough!

[sensei8]

sensei8 wrote:

Besides, all of us like this and all of us like that and all of us don't like this and all of us don't like that; whatever the this and the that are.

Yes, but it's a good thing, otherwise we would have no need for these forums to argue about (discuss) it all!

ROFL...touche! I agree with you!

[still kicking]

sensei8 wrote:

Our Soke had compiled an enormous amount in the curriculum/syllabus from 10th Kyu to Hachidan. When he came to writing and the like about the Dan curriculum/syllabus, he did label them this way...

Jukyu-Ikkyu = Beginner level [in this level; beginner, intermediate, and advanced Kihon, Kata, and Kumite exists]

Shodan-Godan = Intermedate level

Rokudan-Hachidan = Advanced level

[No curriculum/syllabus for Kudan-Judan]

This whole topic exasperates me, I will admit. Even though you are far above me, sensei8, since I am but a nikyu with 10 or 11 years total experience, (4 and a half currently) from what I have observed in our school/organization it is different from this. It always drives me nuts when I hear, "shodan is just the beginning", since I really don't think that's necessarily true. Where I train, I would say that Jukyu-Yonkyu would be beginner level, Sankyu-Shodan-ho would be intermediate level, and Shodan and up is advanced. The thing is, past shodan nobody cares that much about rank. Even though what you test on is rigidly codified for each rank at the organizational level, what you are allowed to learn and practice is much more flexible. Thus we have brown belts who are working on many of the black belt kata, and shodans who have been black belts for years and continue to learn new stuff when we go to the main branch, and refine and deepen their understanding of applications and of how to teach the curriculum. Then there are other schools that have nidans who are still sucking their thumbs, for cripes sakes. I think this speaks to what ps1 said, to the effect that advanced techniques are just basic techniques done better "with better timing and more strategically employed", I believe was the direct quite. Yes, there are more advanced kata and a few more sophisticated moves, but really, even the highest ranking people in our organization are doing the same stuff as the lower black and sometimes brown belt levels, just better.

So as to the original topic, is 1st dan enough... my opinion is that, in some cases, yes it is enough, as long as you keep training and learning from very experienced people, and no, it is not nearly enough if you are learning in a sub-par school. We are comparing apples and buffalo here! Just my 2 cents worth.

[still kicking]

sensei8 wrote:

once in a great while a white belt beats the black belt. Why? The white belts awkwardness and unpolished everything and fettered and unknowing broken rhythm gets the black belt by surprize from time to time. When this happens, and it happens a lot, this doesn't disgrace and/or discredit that black belt, it just happens from time to time.

The mature black belt just smiles and acknowledges that white belt for a job well done, AND, a great technique. See!? The black belt is STILL learning just like that black belt; the learning never ever stops no matter the rank and no matter the knowledge/experience.

Wow, thank you for saying that, sensei8, that may well be the best post I've ever read. Once I won at pool when I had never played before, because I was too naive to be afraid, and everyone in the bar wanted to play me. (After that I got creamed.) But it was a good lesson in "beginner's mind". I so appreciate what you said, because too much of the time people are so busy trying to prove something, perhaps feeling that any defeat is a sign of their worthlessness, and really, if a white belt can show us the gaps in our defenses or whatever, we should be grateful. It takes a certain amount of confidence to be able to feel that way, though. That's the paradox, I think.

[sensei8]

FYI,

The black belt is STILL learning just like that black belt;

This should say...

The black belt is STILL learning just like the white belt...

But, no, my fingers were faster than my brain when I typed this. I fixed this and some spelling errors as well.

Sorry!

[still kicking]

The black belt is STILL learning just like the white belt... I figured that's what you meant, sensei8. I guess my eyes were reading faster than my brain, too!

[sensei8]

The black belt is STILL learning just like the white belt... I figured that's what you meant, sensei8. I guess my eyes were reading faster than my brain, too!

LOL!!!!!!!!

[bushido_man96]

Personally, I don't think you would have enough experience at Shodan to really understand the psychology behind training in MA.

It would be like reading a "A" level students essay at best. Get to 3rd dan - in a decent group, and maybe you are more at university level dissertation.

To write a book about it though (for puplic consumption)!!! - best of luck fella

Chitsu

I disagree here. I don't think that psychological maturity in the MAs necessarily comes along with rank, or vise versa. I think it is something that can be developed independently of physical training, if one seeks to do that.

[Toptomcat]

Personally, I don't think you would have enough experience at Shodan to really understand the psychology behind training in MA.

It would be like reading a "A" level students essay at best. Get to 3rd dan - in a decent group, and maybe you are more at university level dissertation.

To write a book about it though (for puplic consumption)!!! - best of luck fella

Chitsu

I disagree here. I don't think that psychological maturity in the MAs necessarily comes along with rank, or vise versa. I think it is something that can be developed independently of physical training, if one seeks to do that.

I think Chitsu was talking more about depth of knowledge than psychological maturity per se: he did mention psychology, but not explicitly maturity, and looking at the context it doesn't seem that's what he meant.

[bushido_man96]

Psychology relating to the MAs...is what I was reading it as. I guess maturity is one way to describe it; I'm sure there are others. But, my opinion still stands on the matter.

[Chitsu]

Personally, I don't think you would have enough experience at Shodan to really understand the psychology behind training in MA.

It would be like reading a "A" level students essay at best. Get to 3rd dan - in a decent group, and maybe you are more at university level dissertation.

To write a book about it though (for puplic consumption)!!! - best of luck fella

Chitsu

I disagree here. I don't think that psychological maturity in the MAs necessarily comes along with rank, or vise versa. I think it is something that can be developed independently of physical training, if one seeks to do that.

I think Chitsu was talking more about depth of knowledge than psychological maturity per se: he did mention psychology, but not explicitly maturity, and looking at the context it doesn't seem that's what he meant.

Indeed I was. To trully understand the "psychology" that goes behind training in any particular art, takes a depth of knowledge in the subject matter – as well as good hard work and perseverance.

To be fair to Martialart though (btw, that’s a really bad screen name, I have just realised, as I am talking about the poster rather than the subject matter), I don't know what his group offers beyond shodan. Is it just more of the same or additional function to the syllabus?

I know that in my group/style if someone stopped learning at shodan - their understanding (or ability to understand) would be little more than 25% complete. Maybe by sandan it would be 40-50% complete.

Granted, advancement is achieved in most part through repetition of techniques that you already know, but importantly it is also “realised” and honed through the techniques and kata that are only trained at shodan and above. However you haven't a hope of understanding why, if the foundation is laid beneath is not sufficient.

Chitsu