1st Dan is Enough!

[DWx]

And I would be very uncomfortable drawing general conclusions about the psyche of martial artists in general from your experience, which appears limited to Wado karate and McDojo Taekwondo:

No, no, no Top Tomcat, I don't study McDojo Taekwondo. It's actually called Ho-Am Taekwondo, and from my study of Taekwondo forms, it's indistinguishable from the traditional Taekwondo of the ITF. It's actually very good, in my opinion, especially in a world where everything seems to be going to sport martial arts. In addition, we spar every class, we do calesthenics and line work and target work, too. There's nothing wrong with the Taekwondo or the class for that matter--it just so happens to be taught in a McDojo.

I hate to criticise what people do but I'm sorry Martialart, from what I've seen on Youtube and elsewhere on the net, Ho-Am TKD is far from ITF style. In fact from watching a lot of ITA forms videos, I'd say it was more akin to WTF style based on the way the stepping is done and how the moves are executed, the ready positions and the like. Eg. Here is a guy doing what looks like the ITF form Juche (although a lot of the moves have been modified) the

, compare it to Juche ITF way and say Koryo

. I'd say it was more similar to the latter.

[still kicking]

Martialart wrote:

But I guess I'm just interested in the curriculum to the level of 1st dan. I just get the feeling that for me, going beyond that is pushing for something that just never mattered to me.

It seems to me that the elephant in the room here is that whatever you think about rank per se, in my opinion it is essential to have highly skilled dojo mates to train with in order to improve. Whether I am called shodan or godan or whatever might not be important to me, but continuing to improve my skills is important. In my opinion it would be impossible to do that without being surrounded by people who are training at a high level.

[Lupin1]

And I love the way everyone shot down my idea of black belt as a noble institution but now waits in line to tell me how important it is to progress up as many dans as possible.

I don't think anyone was saying it's important to progress up as many dan levels as possible. I think you missed the part where I said my school only offers three levels of dan (with an "instructor" level optional for people who want to teach once they reach 3rd dan). It's more that we don't agree with your argument that the higher levels are meaningless and pointless. We're saying they do have meaning, not that it's important to get as many of them as possible.

Not that I wouldn't continue training or teaching lower grades. In fact, I'd probably be better at teaching lower grades because my focus would be on the forms and techniques from white belt to black belt. I wouldn't be preoccupied with my own progression--just my own perfection.

As a teaching professional, I have to say that someone who isn't committed to his or her own learning will not make a very good teacher. The best teachers love learning for the sake of learning-- a love of the pursuit of knowledge is a necessity for the skilled and passionate passing down of knowledge to others. Also, it doesn't matter whether you're focusing on learning a bunch of new black belt kata or just working on perfecting the kyu kata, you're progressing with every minute of work you put in. You won't gain a huge breadth of knowledge, but you will gain more knowledge and skill and continue to learn every day after reaching black belt. If you practice your basic movements and kata every day, no matter what belt you wear around your waist, you will be a much more experienced and skilled black belt ten years from now than you are today. And no matter what belt you wear, people will look at you and say "that guy's got x years experience, so I expect _____ of him". There's no avoiding it.

[Tzu-Logic]

I certainly wasn't trying to say that you need to reach as high of a level as possible... I was just saying at my particular school you would miss out on some neat stuff if you stopped trying a progress at 1st dan.

but your school could be completely different.

I also really liked what you said about,

I wouldn't be preoccupied with my own progression--just my own perfection.

that is a really neat way to look at training and might be something i want to consider since my instructor always tells me I am too impatient to stay at my current rank...

thank you for that thought

[Toptomcat]

And I love the way everyone shot down my idea of black belt as a noble institution but now waits in line to tell me how important it is to progress up as many dans as possible.

Don't equate 'a black belt does not confer 'nobility'' with 'a black belt is not worth pursuing-' or, the yet more moderate position that many here are advancing, 'don't pick an arbitrary point at which to stop learning'.

[RW]

I've decided not to go above the 1st dan black belt in our school. The reason for this is twofold: something Bushidoman said about instructors not sparring in class, and something I read in a book about Western martial arts.

What book is that? What did it say?

I did the mistake of buying Hatmaker's "kicking bible"... he spends quite a bit of time ripping on Eastern MA's.

[Martialart]

I hate to criticise what people do but I'm sorry Martialart, from what I've seen on Youtube and elsewhere on the net, Ho-Am TKD is far from ITF style. In fact from watching a lot of ITA forms videos, I'd say it was more akin to WTF style based on the way the stepping is done and how the moves are executed, the ready positions and the like. Eg. Here is a guy doing what looks like the ITF form Juche (although a lot of the moves have been modified) the

, compare it to Juche ITF way and say Koryo

. I'd say it was more similar to the latter.

First off let me compliment you on an excellent post comparing similar level forms from three different styles of Taekwondo. I appreciated watching them and comparing them.

But I guess it's a matter of opinion, since you have essentially three different forms represented. The power and decisiveness of the ITA and ITF are similar as compared to the WTF where most of the form is executed from a walking stance and seems more free-flowing. I think if we weren't comparing an adolescent to an older and more experienced man (ITA vs. ITF) the forms would seem more like one another.

What might be interesting is to compare simpler forms. in the ITA we do Chong-Ji and Do-San, and so does the ITF, I think, granted they look somewhat different from each other. Another thing to consider is that ITA's Ho-Am Taekwondo states that it is derived from General Choi's style. It's safe to say, you'll never hear a WTF person claim that.

Also, consider things such as the round kick. WTF kicks with the instep. ITF and ITA with the ball of the foot. ITF and ITA both emphasize escape techniques and self-defense. I was in Sang Lee's WTF school in Colorado Springs for over a year (he was many times the head coach of the Olympic team) and we didn't learn one self-defense technique.

Also, the sparring is different, as in what's allowed and how it's scored in competition. ITA uses the traditional 3 point, point and break type contest and strikes to the head are counted.

Having said all that, I will grant you that I'm new to ITA. However, I probably couldn't have attended a school much more steeped in WTF than Sang Lee's. And the Taekwondo I'm learning is not the same thing. It's much more like Karate, which is much more like the ITF style. Nonetheless, I will certainly grant you that there are significant differences in the hyungs and the way they are executed.

[Martialart]

And no matter what belt you wear, people will look at you and say "that guy's got x years experience, so I expect _____ of him". There's no avoiding it.

That's a good point.

[Martialart]

I wouldn't be preoccupied with my own progression--just my own perfection.

that is a really neat way to look at training and might be something i want to consider since my instructor always tells me I am too impatient to stay at my current rank...

thank you for that thought

You're welcome. Thanks for recognizing it.

[tallgeese]

I think you should set your personal goals in the arts basedon what you want to get out of them and persue them. If that's 1st dan, good for you. Just don't be afraid to modify the goals down the road if your mindset shifts.