1st Dan is Enough!

[Martialart]

I've decided not to go above the 1st dan black belt in our school. The reason for this is twofold: something Bushidoman said about instructors not sparring in class, and something I read in a book about Western martial arts.

It seems to me, especially in our school where 3rd and 4th dans seem to be a dime a dozen, that elevated black belt levels and titles like Master, Senior Master, Grand Master, Ultimate Lord of the Universe Master, and Before the Big Bang Master, simply become liabilities.

Everything I want to learn about Taekwondo, I will have learned by the 1st dan of black belt. In my opinion, I will then "know" Taekwondo, I will be an expert at Taekwondo, and I can then set about perfecting what I know without the pressure to keep adding to it.

If I spar and get beaten by a second dan, there's no loss of face. If I beat a second dan, so much the better.

I'm 45 years old. There's nothing for me to prove by advancing in the "organization." It's a franchise for god's sake; I'm not even sure I want to be culpable in spreading it. So there's no reason for me to strive the Grand Unified Theory Master level of black belt with untold numbers of dan stripes on my belt.

Think about it: every kick I throw at waist level, every board I don't break, every punch when my dobok doesn't pop, every young black belt that prevails over me in sparring would only cause me to loose face and respect if I'm an elevated dan rank.

And that's why I never see the multiple dan instructors doing anything in class. There's no way to live up to their belts.

Besides, in my thinking, a black belt is a black belt. I've always thought extra dan ranks were for organizational purposes only. In other words, if you have a school, the only way to promote somone to black belt would be to be at least a 2nd dan yourself. If you had two or more schools, and the instructors were 2nd dans, then you would need to be a 3rd dan, and so on.

Well, I'm not starting a martial art school. I have a book I want to write on a psychological theory associated with martial arts training, and that will be my contribution to the art, I don't need more than a 1st dan black belt for that. Of course, I'll try to become a senior instructor, but again, that only requires a 1st dan. I will not "work" for a 2nd dan.

If my book should become a huge success in the martial arts world, and the ITA just has to have me be a higher dan for their promotional purposes, then they're simply going to have to award it to me. All I'm training for is a black belt.

Are there faults in my thinking?

[sensei8]

Interesting!

Try to imagine this for just a moment.

What would it be like if one were to stop at the Associate degree level in college? What would it be like if one were to stop at the Bachelor level in college? What would it be like if one were to stop at the Master level in college? What would it be like if one were to stop at the PHd level in college?

I wouldn't want someone performing any type of surgeries or the like with only an Associate degree level! Well, I wouldn't, and neither would anyone else for that matter of fact. I sure wouldn't want anyone to do anything with just an Associate degree if it, whatever it might be, required a higher college degree, and again, neither would anyone else for that matter.

If one is only wanting to learn the basics; then there's nothing wrong with one just wanting to become a shodan. However, there's more to the martial arts than just learning the basics; there's still the intermediate and advanced levels.

[Lupin1]

It seems to me, especially in our school where 3rd and 4th dans seem to be a dime a dozen, that elevated black belt levels and titles like Master, Senior Master, Grand Master, Ultimate Lord of the Universe Master, and Before the Big Bang Master, simply become liabilities.

Agree.

Everything I want to learn about Taekwondo, I will have learned by the 1st dan of black belt.

Disagree. To the nth degree. Black belt just means you're ready to start to seriously studying your art. Everything else is just getting you ready for that. What you're saying is kinda like saying "everything I want to learn about life I will have learned by the time I graduate elementary school".

If I spar and get beaten by a second dan, there's no loss of face. If I beat a second dan, so much the better.

This is a reason for not advancing? Sounds like you're keeping yourself back to make yourself look good...

Think about it: every kick I throw at waist level, every board I don't break, every punch when my dobok doesn't pop, every young black belt that prevails over me in sparring would only cause me to loose face and respect if I'm an elevated dan rank.

Holding yourself back for fear of failure is very common. But it's not good.

Besides, in my thinking, a black belt is a black belt. I've always thought extra dan ranks were for organizational purposes only. In other words, if you have a school, the only way to promote somone to black belt would be to be at least a 2nd dan yourself. If you had two or more schools, and the instructors were 2nd dans, then you would need to be a 3rd dan, and so on.

Again, this is sort of like saying that anything after elementary school is the same-- a middle school student is the same as a high school student is the same as a PhD. Sure, there may not all that much difference between a 1st and 2nd degree just like there isn't much difference between a yellow belt and an orange belt, but I know for a fact that our instructor level blackbelts with 30 years of experience know a heck of a lot more than our 1st degrees with 10. And if the 1st degrees could beat them at sparring (which they can't) it'd probably because the first degrees tend not to be in their late 40s and 50s like the advanced blackbelts.

Higher degrees CAN be given to people to keep them happy within the organization and cater to their egos, or they can be given to signify the advancement that most certainly does occur after one reaches black belt. My school only awards up to 3rd degree, so there's no ego catering, but there most certainly is a difference in the breadth of knowledge and level of performance between our first and second degrees and our 3rd degrees, especially the instructors.

[algernon]

I agree that advanced dan ranks are generally not important (in fact, my organization's advanced dan ranks are essentially a recognition of longevity in the art, without much real meaning behind them at all), but I do not think that they should be avoided, either.

When you are a black belt, we can assume that you will be competent in your form of Taekwondo. It can (and should) be expected that you will have a thorough knowledge of the fundamentals of your style, but you will certainly not be an expert. You can become an expert while holding a low rank, and there is nothing wrong with that. I also agree with sensei8; there is nothing wrong with being satisfied with competence. If you achieve your black belt and decide that you have no desire to continue, then so be it. However, it sounds like black belts might be awarded somewhat prematurely at your school (if 3rd degree adolescents are common), and it may be necessary to continue to achieve your desired level of skill and knowledge.

As for "saving face" in front of others; it shouldn't be an issue. Sure, 2nd dans will lose matches to 1st dans, and sometimes with regularity. The only way to never lose is to not fight at all! The belt system is not a ranking of who's-better-than-whom (if it was, you would have a different belt every week!), it's just a method of tracking progress through your school's curriculum. Your training does not need to suffer from other students' egotism. To quote Michelangelo, "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark"

Just train to your satisfaction, and don't concern yourself greatly with the belt that you are awarded.

[Chitsu]

What if your school/group has additional levels of training that is only taught to students above shodan?

Chitsu

[still kicking]

Lupin1 wrote:

Sure, there may not all that much difference between a 1st and 2nd degree just like there isn't much difference between a yellow belt and an orange belt, but I know for a fact that our instructor level blackbelts with 30 years of experience know a heck of a lot more than our 1st degrees with 10.

And... a first degree with 10 or 15 years of experience probably knows a lot more than a nidan with 4 years of experience. Some schools see black belt as "just the beginning", for others it requires 10 or more years of rigorous training and a pretty extensive knowledge and ability to teach the curriculum. It seems to me the issue in the OP's case is lack of quality of other students to train with. I also agree with what someone else said about often the higher dan levels are more about years of experience and contribution to the art than pure physical skill. Even though, hopefully, the skill is there, but it would seem normal to me to have a 5th dan instructor who was very good but doing more teaching than training these days to be beaten by a younger shodan. That doesn't mean the 5th dan isn't warranted.

All of this is to say... when you are training in a school where you question the abilities of your peers and maybe teachers, perhaps a certain level of defensiveness about rank is warranted? It reminds me of one of my cats. When I am playing with them and the other one catches the ribbon toy faster than him a couple of times, he will sit back and lick his paw, as if to say "I don't care, I'm not really trying to catch it anyway" (which I think is hilarious, by the way). For me I think it is important to keep progressing through ranks because it drives me to improve more than I would otherwise, I think. But of course it has to be a rank I respect and that means something to me.

[Chitsu]

Well, I'm not starting a martial art school. I have a book I want to write on a psychological theory associated with martial arts training, and that will be my contribution to the art, I don't need more than a 1st dan black belt for that. Of course, I'll try to become a senior instructor, but again, that only requires a 1st dan. I will not "work" for a 2nd dan.

If my book should become a huge success in the martial arts world, and the ITA just has to have me be a higher dan for their promotional purposes, then they're simply going to have to award it to me. All I'm training for is a black belt.

Are there faults in my thinking?

Personally, I don't think you would have enough experience at Shodan to really understand the psychology behind training in MA.

It would be like reading a "A" level students essay at best. Get to 3rd dan - in a decent group, and maybe you are more at university level dissertation.

To write a book about it though (for puplic consumption)!!! - best of luck fella

Chitsu

[Martialart]

Interesting!

Try to imagine this for just a moment.

What would it be like if one were to stop at the Associate degree level in college? What would it be like if one were to stop at the Bachelor level in college? What would it be like if one were to stop at the Master level in college? What would it be like if one were to stop at the PHd level in college?

I wouldn't want someone performing any type of surgeries or the like with only an Associate degree level! Well, I wouldn't, and neither would anyone else for that matter of fact. I sure wouldn't want anyone to do anything with just an Associate degree if it, whatever it might be, required a higher college degree, and again, neither would anyone else for that matter.

I would agree. If I wanted to promote others to a shodan level, then I would need to be at least a second degree black belt. But I'm not.

If one is only wanting to learn the basics; then there's nothing wrong with one just wanting to become a shodan. However, there's more to the martial arts than just learning the basics; there's still the intermediate and advanced levels.

I hear you. And I have come to the conclusion that I'm happy knowing the basics. Of course, a 1st degree in our school has to do a pretty complicated hyung, so I'm not sure it's just the basics they have learned. Not to mention, along the way, a person learns a lot of different kicks. Be that as it may, to be very good at those things that are basic is fine, in my opinion.

And consider the school I'm in: I don't think there's any hidden thing that's all that important that is revealed to the higher dan ranks (unless you include what it takes to buy into the franchise). There are some other hyungs as you go up, to a point, but I really would rather design one of my own at that point.

Like I said, though, if I were opening my own school in the ITA, that would be a different thing for sure. Then, organizationally, and for marketing purposes, it would behoove me to be a higher dan grade.

[Toptomcat]

I'm going to buck the trend here and say that considering the circumstances of your training and your personal goals, I think that this is the right decision for you.

I also think that your experience in martial arts is far too narrow to legitimately write a book about the psychological component of MA training, though.

[Martialart]

Black belt just means you're ready to start to seriously studying your art. Everything else is just getting you ready for that. What you're saying is kinda like saying "everything I want to learn about life I will have learned by the time I graduate elementary school".

So, you think I should strive for 10th dan. Great. I think you should strive for 10th dan, too. I just don't want to. I want to learn up to 1st dan and perfect that. That is all I believe I can really do well.

This is a reason for not advancing? Sounds like you're keeping yourself back to make yourself look good...

Not to look good so much as to not look bad. If there's a difference.

Again, this is sort of like saying that anything after elementary school is the same-- a middle school student is the same as a high school student is the same as a PhD. Sure, there may not all that much difference between a 1st and 2nd degree just like there isn't much difference between a yellow belt and an orange belt, but I know for a fact that our instructor level blackbelts with 30 years of experience know a heck of a lot more than our 1st degrees with 10. And if the 1st degrees could beat them at sparring (which they can't) it'd probably because the first degrees tend not to be in their late 40s and 50s like the advanced blackbelts.

Great, but I can be an instructor as a 1st dan. And your school may be different than mine. The bottom line is, I have to be realistic about my goals in life, or I won't acheive them. I don't have the ability to perfect the six or so hyungs from white belt to 1st dan, unless at some point I stop being a student and start being a practitioner--of those things.