Awarded By The Emperor!

[sensei8]

Many here at KF as well as from many outside of KF are proponents that rank and the like outside of owns own style is meaningless, and in that, rank outside of owns own style has no value. I'm one of the proponents!

Therefore, no matter whom the noted and noteworthy martial artist might be outside of their immediate style; that's still meaningless. One might say that Kanazawa Sensei's Judan holds value only inside the SKIF. Kanazawa Sensei is known worldwide as a extremely solid karateka.

But, do we hold any value to his rank outside of the SKIF/Shotokan? Rank is important only within its context, but, many still don't value rank and they never will, no matter whom it might be.

In 1975, Tatsuo Susuki received his eighth Dan, the highest grade ever given by the Federation of All-Japan Karate-Do organizations. That still might not be respected or recognized by those outside of Wado-ryu circles. Why?

Also, in 1975, Tatsuo Susuki received the highest Japanese martial arts title of 'Hanshi' awarded to him by the Emperor Higashikuni. Again, that might not be respected or recognized by those outside of Wado-ryu circles. Why? Surely a title, or a rank nonetheless, that is awarded by the Emperor would be respected AND recognized by many, if not all. By the Emperor! Wow! Can't get any higher than that!

Suzuki Sensei is the only living person with this title in Wado-Ryu. The only other Wado Hanshi was the late Otsuka Sensei, the founder of Wado-ryu. Still this might not be respected or recognized by those outside of the Wado-ryu circles.

Your thoughts?

[username13768]

Prince Higashikuni was never the Emporer of Japan. He was a Prince and Prime Minister of Japan for a little less than 2 months. In 1957 he was the honorary chairman of IMAF. I'm assuming that it was during this period when Susuki's promotion took place.

All that said unless the promoting body is a recognized high ranking exponent of the art in question, why would anyone be impressed by this rank? It's akin to being and honorary Doctor. An honor to be sure, but it isn't an actual rank unless it was backed by the rest of the IMAF. Being a Nanadan is impressive enough on it's on though I suppose.

That said, as an answer to the entire article, I have to say that I think rank is meaningless outside of ones own style regardless of who granted it. I personally think rank is meaningless within one's own style depending on the style and the knowledge, or lack thereof, that is represented by the rank. Just my 2/5 of a nickel.

[sensei8]

Prince Higashikuni was never the Emporer of Japan. He was a Prince and Prime Minister of Japan for a little less than 2 months. In 1957 he was the honorary chairman of IMAF. I'm assuming that it was during this period when Susuki's promotion took place.

My mistake. I was thinking that Higashikuni WAS once a prince, but, in the same paragraph, Higashikuni was refered to as Emperor. So, I gave him the higher of the two titles.

All that said unless the promoting body is a recognized high ranking exponent of the art in question, why would anyone be impressed by this rank? It's akin to being and honorary Doctor. An honor to be sure, but it isn't an actual rank unless it was backed by the rest of the IMAF. Being a Nanadan is impressive enough on it's on though I suppose.

I'm like you in that I wouldn't be impressed because it's like when President Obama got his honorary black belt in TKD from the Korean government. It meant nothing to me because to me, it's just stuff. Still, in preparing a topic I sometime ask the question, directly or indirectly, to hopefully generate a more meaningful conversation. Again, we're on the same page in this.

That said, as an answer to the entire article, I have to say that I think rank is meaningless outside of ones own style regardless of who granted it. I personally think rank is meaningless within one's own style depending on the style and the knowledge, or lack thereof, that is represented by the rank. Just my 2/5 of a nickel.

Bingo! Very solid and I concur!

Respect FOR/OF the rank must be earned; therefore, the respect for the rank, no matter the level, isn't automatically given. Just because one is wearing rank doesn't mean their rank MUST be respected immediately. Until the respect is earned for that said rank, it's [rank] nothing more than just stuff.

[Chitsu]

According to Suzuki's own WIKF website, he was given the title of "Hanshi" by the "International Budo Federation" - after being awarded 8th dan (presumably by Otsuka sensei?).

He was presented with a "special silver cup" by Higashi Kuni no Miya - (the uncle of the Emperor of Japan) – But he didn't get the title from him.

Also, it's not quite correct to say there are no other Hanshi within Wado Ryu today:

Masafumi Shiomitsu was appointed Hanshi by Otsuka II (and he (Shiomitsu sensei) currently holds the rank of 9th dan).

Toru Arakawa also holds the rank of 9th dan as awarded by the JKF (Japan Karate Federation).

These guys are amongst the highest ranked/graded Wado-ka in the world today.

Hironori Otsuka himself was awarded the title of "Meijin" but again, it was by a martial federation rather than the Imperial family of Japan.

Rather like the royal family here in the UK, the Imperial family awarded “medals” and titles (like Knighthoods, MBEs, OBEs etc.) in recognition of the recipient’s contribution in their field - but they are not recognition of technical ability and rank within said art.

Otsuka (senior) received a couple of these at least - as far as I know. I don't think Suzuki sensei has though.

Chitsu

[Toptomcat]

Rank is not necessarily completely meaningless outside of one's own style. If a large organization establishes a consistent reputation for having strict standards for the belts it issues, then the rank it issues can become independently meaningful. Rank issued by the major judo and knockdown karate organizations is fairly solid, and despite its decentralization Brazilian jujutsu also isn't bad in this reguard, though there have been indications that this is changing.

Rank issued by high-ranking political figures is worth...I dunno. Two snickers instead of one?

Edited May 9, 2010 by Toptomcat

[Chitsu]

There is rank and then again there are "Shogo" titles.

My group doesn't tend to utilize titles, and if anything they turn me off if I am being honest.

Its one thing trying to draw comparison between dan grade.... I am not sure you need to add titles as well.

Hanshi is maybe different, as it implies Head Instructor of a group, but I'm not one for your "Renshi" and "Kyoshi" etc.

But thats just my view and to each their own of course.

Chitsu

[sensei8]

Obviously my research about Tatsuo Susuki was incorrect. I stand corrected by Chitsu, and I thank him. I've egg on my face now...sorry.

[sensei8]

Whether one respects someones rank or not, that's up to each martial artists to decide. But, to disrespect ones individual accomplishments in the martial arts, no matter how small or large they might be, that to me, isn't cool.

To respect them; isn't that to respect their accomplishments? I'll respect that person until they give me reasons to not.

I'd rather meet and train with fellow martial artists, and whenever I do; I'm training with them, not their rank. I'm totally indifferent about what rank/title someone might or might not have. Why? I just want to train with solid martial artists across the board.

I've my rank and you've got your rank, but to be honest, our ranks are ok in there proper context, but again, I just want to train with solid martial artists!

[ps1]

I don't really care what one's rank is. What I respect is their time on the mat, the blood and sweat they've poured getting where they are. They've traveled down the path I'm on. The path I love. I respect they skill they can demonstrate and the weaknesses they acknowledge.

[Martialart]

I think martial arts is a bit like religion. So, for instance, if you're not a Latter Day Saint, it really doesn't matter if you're the Pope.