Martial Artists of Noble Stature

[Kuma]

When they go out socializing after class even if they arent having a meeting, but just having a good time, Kyus arent even allowed to sit at their table. (except for my Sandan friend, who got really annoyed when they attacked me for hanging out there, because I am his friend and he doesnt agree with cliques)

Gotta say, I don't agree with that, but to each his own I guess.

[Kuma]

And I realize some black belts don't shine with a lot of nobility, but look at some of the older martial artists, the ones who have given their life to it. Don't you think they have a noble quality?

Kyan Chotoku was a mean nasty fellow. He was also an incredibly talented karateka and instructor. Martial arts and noble character do not go hand in hand.

[Martialart]

I will say this much: last night at Taekwondo certainly challenged my ideas about black belts and nobility. But only to modify it.

We have this one instructor who's fiftyish, wears a nasty-looking beard and is grossly overweight. And I don't mean heavy, I mean sloppy, gut-flopping-over fat. He looks like crap when he does any technique, and when he instructs, not only does he allow the teens to talk, but engages them and joins in. It was so bad last night during warm up that the senior student actually took it upon himself to give the commands, lest we all stayed lying on our stomachs while the instructor chatted with whoever was having a verbal outburst at the time. The instructor didn't even seem to notice the class had been mercifully taken over by the senior student.

And the senior student? A seventeen year-old 4th dan who's in the final stages of acceptance to the Air Force Academy. Very polite to me and my wife, very knowledgable, and apparently more disciplined than that particular instructor. As a psych nurse on an adolescent unit, believe me, I am refreshed to see teenagers like that in the world.

So, I would say nobility involves discipline, for sure.

And as a side note. Fiftyish fat guys with beards who get too familiar with underage people, like they want to be "in" with them always creeps me out. Call it professional experience.

[username13768]

Perhaps your version of nobility is actually related to the person and not the color of the belt? As you saw yourself, a piece of cloth and a title doesn't make someone noble. Have you ever considered that noble might not be the right word for what you're talking about? Or maybe, that it's too strong a word for what you're talking about?

[Martialart]

A noble person and a noble class or caste are not the same thing. Mr. Pedoblubber belongs to the noble class of black belt level martial artists, but doesn't seem to be a particularly noble character.

That's not unusual. There are princes and princesses who do not uphold a noble character, even though they belong to a noble class.

Any person can act with nobility. They can be disciplined, brave, educated, honorable, kind, compassionate, just, righteous, rich, what have you, but that doesn't mean they are in a noble class of people. That class is something society invents, and it seems to me that the basic castes in the Western World, are the religious, educated, celebrity, political, wealthy/royal, and the warrior.

I believe we typically put within the warrior caste the soldier, the police officer, the fire fighter, and yes, the black-belt level martial artist.

[algernon]

But I want to pick this apart a bit, not to be argumentitive, but simply to arrive at some definition.

A noble person and a noble class or caste are not the same thing.

Well, to be fair, this thread is entirely argumentative (and I can certainly appreciate the virtue of that!), and lack of definition is exactly what is making arguing so difficult. I don't think any two people have been speaking the same language so far! That being said, choosing a definition should have been the place to start.

"Noble" can refer to a loftiness of position, or having the impressions of that loftiness, or it can mean that one has a strong moral character. Before we can discuss what is or is not noble, we have to stipulate what "noble" is. Most of the posts on this thread seem to have taken you to mean that martial artists are of a high moral caliber (and you have even supported that), but most of your posts refer to martial artists as belonging to a class or "caste," or that they have the appearance of so belonging.

If you mean to say that martial artists are of a higher character than most, I would have to disagree with the rest of the crowd. If you mean that we actually belong to a more privileged or respected class, I would have to disagree even more strongly. If you mean that we are perceived as belonging in a higher position, then . . . perhaps. Finally, if you mean that black belts form a particular caste within the community of martial artists, I would be inclined to agree. Which point, exactly, are you trying to argue?

[bushido_man96]

Don't you think that there's a difference between martial artists and non-martial artists? It seems that martial artists have a nobility, that is a superior quality and sanctification, a greater moral stature.

Now that may not be true, but tell someone you have a black belt and they tend to think you're a cut above the rest, a powerful person. Is that not nobility?

I don't really think so. I think that there is a big push by many instructors selling their programs that this becomes so, but I think that by and large, it has more to do with the person than whether or not they practice a Martial Art.

There are MA good guys out there, and MA bad guys out there. That may sound kind of corny, but its the truth.

I think our BB's think they are noble.

When they go out socializing after class even if they arent having a meeting, but just having a good time, Kyus arent even allowed to sit at their table. (except for my Sandan friend, who got really annoyed when they attacked me for hanging out there, because I am his friend and he doesnt agree with cliques)

Man, that's tough for me to fathom. I can't think of many of the colored belts in my school that I wouldn't mind hanging out with. But, that's the way I grew up. I can be friends with just about anyone.

[bushido_man96]

A black belt ISN'T in a superior class!

Well, maybe not to you. But to the outside world it is. I really think that. It may be a ruse, but the noble classes have been fooling people for all of history. Nonetheless, it's never the nobility that makes themselves noble. They don't jump up on a pedastool. Other people put them there.

Case in point. I had to draw blood from a 9 year-old, patient in the mental hospital yesterday. For a lab that is. He was afriad of the needle, but when I had stuck him and was collecting the blood, I praised him for being so brave in the face of it and said to him "You must have a Samurai spirit in you." He was a pudgy kid with some serious setbacks in his life, but he was very interested in that notion. He even asked of the blood in the tube if that was Samurai blood. I told him that it was indeed. Then I gave him four stickers with superheroes on them (For some reason that escapes me, the kids in the hospital love those and will do just about anything for them--including getting better!).

He loved the notion of the Samurai. He loved the superheros on the stickers. I told him, "When you get older and out of here, you should think about martial arts, being you obviously have a Samurai spirit." He seemed to like that idea quite a lot.

So, you see, your black belt (I think you told us you have 45 years in martial arts and run a dojo.) does put you in a noble class, whether you like it or not. You never said you were noble, but that kid would think you are. You'd be a living superhero to him, something worthy of being on a sticker. You can't come down to him from on high (which can save him) unless you are from on high.

Does that make any sense at all?

Although this is a nice story, in the end, I don't think it amounts to a nobility thing. You helped someone out, got them through something. That's a good thing. But, I don't think it has much to do with the Martial Artist being noble. As for the Samurai, it has been so romanticized throughout the generations that the only things you hear about are the good things they did, and likely with a bit of embelishment alongside.

As for a definition of nobility, it was usually a higher rung of a caste system, and usually only born into. If you were born into nobility, then you likely stayed there. If you were born to a lower caste, you likely stayed there. In my opinion, the training in the Martial Arts trumps this idea, because you get better and rank higher through training and fighting. The Martial Arts give a way to move up, whereas the caste system usually didn't allow this as much.

[Martialart]

Although this is a nice story, in the end, I don't think it amounts to a nobility thing. You helped someone out, got them through something. That's a good thing. But, I don't think it has much to do with the Martial Artist being noble.

The point of the story was not to show that I was noble. I may have been unclear, but the point was that the child values the samurai class. The child values superheroes, like on the stickers.

[Martialart]

"Noble" can refer to a loftiness of position, or having the impressions of that loftiness, or it can mean that one has a strong moral character. Before we can discuss what is or is not noble, we have to stipulate what "noble" is. Most of the posts on this thread seem to have taken you to mean that martial artists are of a high moral caliber (and you have even supported that), but most of your posts refer to martial artists as belonging to a class or "caste," or that they have the appearance of so belonging.

If you mean to say that martial artists are of a higher character than most, I would have to disagree with the rest of the crowd. If you mean that we actually belong to a more privileged or respected class, I would have to disagree even more strongly. If you mean that we are perceived as belonging in a higher position, then . . . perhaps. Finally, if you mean that black belts form a particular caste within the community of martial artists, I would be inclined to agree. Which point, exactly, are you trying to argue?

I hear you. And I think there are three definitions of "noble." The first is a royal caste that one is born into. But that definition isn't a very important one these days. And it flies in the face of the second, most popular definition of the word which is that "nobility" is having a supreme character: brave, compassionate, indominable, just, righteous, courteous, well-educated, well-mannered, etc.

The third definition is that nobility is a better class of persons that one belongs to. And that could be just about anything.

I find it interesting that many of the people in here, all of you actually except me, think so lowly of the black belt in martial arts, and yet, I'll bet it's something so valuable to you that you would never give it up--ever.

It's just like the educated class of people. You might hear them say a college degree is just something to put on a resume, but they would never, ever give it up. And anyone with a bachelors degree would immediately correct anyone who said, don't you have an associate degree? And a black belt would consider his or her honor at stake if anyone suggested they should wear a green belt to class from now on.

People on the street may scoff at having a black belt, but they only do so out of jealousy. And that jealousy is the proof of the nobility of the black belt institution.

Just like in the educated class: anyone without a degree who scoffs at one who has a degree is looked at as a low and pathetically jealous creature.

In the end, it's not the black belt, or the person wearing it who makes the nobility. It's other people who put them on a pedestal.

Later, when I'm a black belt, my argument will be something like this: Since we are put into a noble class, we should act as if we were. I.e., honor, dignity, truthfulness, bravery, indominability, compassion, wisdom, etc.