Martial Artists of Noble Stature

[Toptomcat]

I think the issue is that intrinsic nobility and moral superiority is a disturbingly expansive definition of 'better'.

[algernon]

"Better" isn't measurable. One can be better than another at or for a task, or in regards to some measurable qualification, but "better" is vague and subjective. If you aren't limiting the comparison to a specific quality (or range of qualities), or if that quality is not quantifiable, then you are being arbitrary in your assessment. One could legitimately claim that someone is a better basketball player, or better suited for a job, but that is not the same as calling that person categorically "better." In what way would you describe martial artists as "better" than everyone else? If you tell me that martial artists are better at martial arts, I'll believe you. If you tell me that martial artists are "better," then you really aren't making any meaningful claim. Do you mean morally better? I wouldn't buy that for a second (after all, you'd first have to give me the comprehensive moral theory by which you measured them, and then you'd have to show me the data). Your hobbies are no grounds for declaring yourself to be in a superior class.

Many people, including a lot of very powerful minds, have thought hard about what makes one person "better" than another, but the only conclusions that anyone has come to have been crafted to elevate the thinker, or a group to which the thinker belongs. The search for the "best" kind of person always begins and ends in the mirror.

[Blade96]

i hate it when my BB's separate themselves and we cant sit at their table even when they arent having a meeting....because im a Kyu.

I talked to one of my brown belts about it and brown belt kyu feels the same - unwelcome. Un believable.

[still kicking]

Blade96, I'm sorry this is going on for you, but this is exactly the kind of thing I meant when I was responding to another post you made some time ago, i.e. you can't get bogged down with emotional issues and expect to survive long term in karate! Believe me, I know! It does not matter who likes who, who is a favorite, who snubs you, -- sometimes beyond that, who is dating who, and on and on. In my opinion, it has to be -- just train! From my observations, not counting people who drop out due to apathy, more people drop out of training due to various emotional and relational disturbances than due to learning frustrations. That is part of the training. Just show up and don't worry about who likes you or doesn't like you, you are there for yourself and your training, nothing more and nothing less! (Not trying to sound like a wise old sensei, I'm not, just an experienced student who has seen it all.)

[Martialart]

I can certainly understand Blade96's frustration. One thing about the McDojo I belong to: no one seems particularly favored. In class tonight, I noticed there is absolutely no favoritism at all, and I would have thought, just by virtue of the fact that the adolescent 2nd and 3rd dans had been training there for at least three years, that some kind of relationship would have developed. I mean, just seeing the same people all the time would seem to lead to some kind of--something. And yet the head instructor, the co-owner, the master, doesn't seem to like them any more than she likes us.

People show up, class is conducted, and people go home. It's kind of cold. But I know that in the long run that will be better than trying to play clique and politics.

[Toptomcat]

So if the black belts aren't treated as a different social class, and there are those among your black belts who are fundamentally unimpressive people, from whence came this idea of yours that a black belt is a person of a different social class and an inherently noble person?

[bushido_man96]

I find it interesting that many of the people in here, all of you actually except me, think so lowly of the black belt in martial arts, and yet, I'll bet it's something so valuable to you that you would never give it up--ever.

I think you assume too much here. I don't recall anyone really saying they feel a black belt is lowly. It is no doubt an accomplishment. I just don't think a lot of people tie more into it than is there--to me, it is an indicator of skill or knowledge. Not much more than that. There are those who practice styles that don't use belts, and they don't have to worry about this issue. They know what they know, and it is enough; it doesn't have to be displayed around their waist.

As for giving up a black belt, I don't consider that a big deal. You can have the belt...but you can't take the knowledge, and the time that has been put into the training.

I think in the end, there are those who do or do not romanticize what the black belt truly is.

Try asking someone with a black belt to surrender it and move to the back of the class with a white belt. Or for that matter, try getting anyone to even give up their identity as a black belt or an educated person.

I'd gladly wear a white belt and move to the back of the class. I have actually done this by taking another Martial Art that I have no experience in. I'm a white belt in there, and have no problem what so ever with being in the back of that class. I'd gladly go to the back of my TKD class, too. I'm not there to advertise, I'm there to learn. And if I get to learn more by being at the back of the class, then sign me up.

And I don't have a bachelor's degree, either.

[sensei8]

unwelcome.

Easy solution. If your BB's make you feel unwelcome, then unenroll and find someplace where you'll feel welcomed ALL THE TIME!

[Martialart]

So if the black belts aren't treated as a different social class, and there are those among your black belts who are fundamentally unimpressive people, from whence came this idea of yours that a black belt is a person of a different social class and an inherently noble person?

Actually, now that I think on it, I have no idea. Seriously. Having explored the issue, and thought about it a great deal, I see no inherent nobility. There is a class of persons--the warrior class--that is made up of soldiers, policemen, firefighters, and I believe martial artists. But that class is not noble, not inherently.

In fact, outside of monarchies where there is a formal nobility (and even that isn't much more than a spectacle in the modern world), I'm not sure there is any such thing as noble classes or castes. There are classes, but people do not typically think of a firefighter as being inherently better than they are, as people.

But nobility, itself, still fascinates me, because I know it when I see it. Perhaps it comes from the Kingdom of Heaven (define that how you will). And I know that nobility is passed on, or at least its influence is often passed on. If one had a noble grandfather, or father, or grandmother or mother, they are more likely to be noble themselves. Or maybe it's always first generation only.

And it seems to me that noble people are truly better people than non-noble people (ignoble? Lowly, common, trashy?). In other words, the world would truly be better if there were more noble people in it and less ignoble people in it.

But what is noble? What does it mean to be noble? Can one even choose it?

[sensei8]

I find it interesting that many of the people in here, all of you actually except me, think so lowly of the black belt in martial arts, and yet, I'll bet it's something so valuable to you that you would never give it up--ever.

I think you assume too much here. I don't recall anyone really saying they feel a black belt is lowly. It is no doubt an accomplishment. I just don't think a lot of people tie more into it than is there--to me, it is an indicator of skill or knowledge. Not much more than that. There are those who practice styles that don't use belts, and they don't have to worry about this issue. They know what they know, and it is enough; it doesn't have to be displayed around their waist.

As for giving up a black belt, I don't consider that a big deal. You can have the belt...but you can't take the knowledge, and the time that has been put into the training.

I think in the end, there are those who do or do not romanticize what the black belt truly is.

Try asking someone with a black belt to surrender it and move to the back of the class with a white belt. Or for that matter, try getting anyone to even give up their identity as a black belt or an educated person.

I'd gladly wear a white belt and move to the back of the class. I have actually done this by taking another Martial Art that I have no experience in. I'm a white belt in there, and have no problem what so ever with being in the back of that class. I'd gladly go to the back of my TKD class, too. I'm not there to advertise, I'm there to learn. And if I get to learn more by being at the back of the class, then sign me up.

And I don't have a bachelor's degree, either.

Solid post Brian....solid post!