Martial Artists of Noble Stature

[Toptomcat]

Although this is a nice story, in the end, I don't think it amounts to a nobility thing. You helped someone out, got them through something. That's a good thing. But, I don't think it has much to do with the Martial Artist being noble.

The point of the story was not to show that I was noble. I may have been unclear, but the point was that the child values the samurai class. The child values superheroes, like on the stickers.

That is because he is a child. That is a childlike point of view, a drastically simplified and idealized view of reality.

[ninjanurse]

I have a few thoughts on this that I would like to share-to contribute to the discussion from my perspective. The impression that those of us who are dan holders do not value our rank is unfortunate as only those who have achieved the rank understand it's significance and the role it plays. Of course, we are free to disagree philosophically and express our opinions but should refrain from imposing our own agenda on others as everyone's journey is unique to them. In martial arts, nobility is an expression of character not a social caste or "special" position-Black Belts take their place in the lineage of their art just like any other student.

Now some comments on some posts:

It's just like the educated class of people. You might hear them say a college degree is just something to put on a resume, but they would never, ever give it up. And anyone with a bachelors degree would immediately correct anyone who said, don't you have an associate degree? And a black belt would consider his or her honor at stake if anyone suggested they should wear a green belt to class from now on.

It's just a piece of paper and a strip of cloth-giving either up does not change the person nor erase the knowledge gained. Material things are not what is important in life and honor is about character and the truth within, not belt color.

People on the street may scoff at having a black belt, but they only do so out of jealousy. And that jealousy is the proof of the nobility of the black belt institution.

Just like in the educated class: anyone without a degree who scoffs at one who has a degree is looked at as a low and pathetically jealous creature.

In the end, it's not the black belt, or the person wearing it who makes the nobility. It's other people who put them on a pedestal.

One cannot judge another's motives only their own. Being a role model is one thing....wanting to be idolized is another.

Later, when I'm a black belt, my argument will be something like this: Since we are put into a noble class, we should act as if we were. I.e., honor, dignity, truthfulness, bravery, indominability, compassion, wisdom, etc.

One does not need to be a Black Belt, or a martial artist for that matter, to act nobly.

[GeoGiant]

Wow this thread has gotten strange. After reading the responses I have to say that I agree with most. Assuming that someone is noble because of an achievement, whether that achievement is a black belt, college degree, etc, seems like a leap of faith.

John has a black belt…. black belts are noble… therefore John is noble… this line of thinking is a very basic fallacy of logic. I warn anyone against assuming someone is noble based on anything other than an individuals actions.

[sensei8]

Please don't misunderstand me and/or my meanings/intent, please! This is my opinion and my opinion alone.

I'm very proud of my many accomplishments within the martial arts, both as a student and as a sensei. Do I feel noble and the like because of my black belt, no I do not! Why? I keep my black belt in its proper context and don't think that my black belt makes me better than anyone.

I guess, I don't know, but, I think that just about anyone can label anyone a noble individual based on the labelers point(s) of view. At the same time, anyone can say that an individual doesn't have theright-stuff that's required to being noble. Either way, I'd take either with just a grain of salt.

Why?

If I'm noble, that's not because of my black belt. No. More importantly, it's because of my God. It's because of my parents! It's because of my Dai-Soke! It's because of my wife and my kids! A lot of this and a little of that made me who I am today, and I thank them, and I always will. I know what's right and what's wrong and I adhere to those. I don't feel noble, and that's ok, however, I do feel proud, and more importantly, I feel good!

If the black belt is one of the main requirements for a martial artist to be of a noble stature, then, imho, only my Dai-Soke can say this of me, and only my Dai-Soke, imho, can give this stature to me. Sure, I can feel noble and I can say that I'm noble, and I can say that my black belt makes me noble, but I won't because I don't believe that I am because of my black belt, and I surely know that my black belt has/had nothing to do with me being noble. It's just a piece of cloth. I don't wear my black belt around my waist, but I wear my black belt around my heart.

Countless times, especially as of late, my Hombu has tried to award me a Kudan, but, each and everytime that they've tried, I've politely refused them. Why? Because ONLY my Dai-Soke, and him alone, who's also my sensei, can award anything to me, and only my Dai-Soke's opinion of me, as it relates to my martial arts, is the only opinion that I value.

Respectfully, I'm thankful for the guesture, but, no thanks!

[Martialart]

It's just a piece of paper and a strip of cloth-giving either up does not change the person nor erase the knowledge gained. Material things are not what is important in life and honor is about character and the truth within, not belt color.

Well, there are the things we say, and the things we do. Try asking someone with a degree to rip up that piece of paper. Try asking someone with a black belt to surrender it and move to the back of the class with a white belt. Or for that matter, try getting anyone to even give up their identity as a black belt or an educated person. I notice you conveniently wrote, "The impression that those of us who are dan holders do not value our rank...[emphasis added by me]" I'm not criticizing this at all. All I'm pointing out is that you were going to make sure we knew you were a black belt. And that's my point. It is a caste you belong to. It may be all perception, but that's what castes are to begin with--perception.

One does not need to be a Black Belt, or a martial artist for that matter, to act nobly.

True.

[Toptomcat]

Wow this thread has gotten strange. After reading the responses I have to say that I agree with most. Assuming that someone is noble because of an achievement, whether that achievement is a black belt, college degree, etc, seems like a leap of faith.

John has a black belt…. black belts are noble… therefore John is noble… this line of thinking is a very basic fallacy of logic. I warn anyone against assuming someone is noble based on anything other than an individuals actions.

To be fair, that's not a fallacy of logic per se. This translates to:

1- X has attribute Y

2- All things with attribute Y also have attribute Z

3- X has attribute Z

This is actually perfectly logically airtight. The problem with this line of reasoning is in the premises: if 2 is false, 3 is false as well. Most of us seem to be arguing against the premises, not the logic itself.

[username13768]

One last post.

I do not value my rank at all. I value the knowledge that I gain. At my last big school that I taught at I turned down my 3rd dan promotion and requested to teach as a white belt. My instructor granted this, so I taught the remainder of my time there as a white belt to show my students that rank doesn't mean anything. It's the skills not the rank that matters. I still will not wear rank if I can get away with it. Even after all that I feel that my skills don't make me any better than anyone else. Different maybe, but not better.

[algernon]

You mistake our positions, Martialart. We do not think lowly of black belts (many of us, if not most, hold black belts); we simply know that they are just ordinary, fallible people.

I also can't imagine feeling that my "honor was at stake" if someone asked me to wear a different belt; when I train in other arts, I wear the appropriate belt. I think that a bachelor’s degree is an apt comparison. Yes, I am proud of my accomplishments, but that is all they are - accomplishments. Black belt is a goal that I worked hard for and, with a little natural aptitude, achieved.

People very seldom "scoff" at my training, and when they do, it is usually out of general disregard for martial arts as a whole, not jealousy. No, the most common response is polite indifference.

Later, when I'm a black belt, my argument will be something like this: Since we are put into a noble class, we should act as if we were. I.e., honor, dignity, truthfulness, bravery, indominability, compassion, wisdom, etc.

Perhaps we should all try to conduct ourselves in that manner, regardless of dan rank?

If you are expecting (or hoping) to be put into a noble class, your expectation will not be met. Outside of a training setting, having a black belt will be regarded (at best) as a notable accomplishment. Within your school (as it is with most), black belts probably hold a higher status, and the novice students probably look up to them. This is not because they are of a "noble" class, but because they are more knowledgeable, and they have already achieved something that the other students are working toward. They are role models; they are examples of what the other students should be doing in order to reach the level of skill that the black belts have. The dynamic is not so much like nobility to lesser castes; it is more like graduate students to undergrads. You have something to learn from them, and a quiet respect of their effort and abilities is appropriate, but they should not be regarded as an elite stratum.

I agree with ninjanurse; defending an arguable point is wonderful, but making ungrounded assumptions of others' characters and motivations is not an arguable point. You spend much of your time here trying to tell seasoned martial artists about what you think they are, and you have mostly missed the mark. That time might be better spent on your own training, so that you can learn the truth about the martial arts and their practitioners first-hand.

John has a black belt…. black belts are noble… therefore John is noble… this line of thinking is a very basic fallacy of logic

Actually, though unsound, there is no logical fallacy committed here at all. The argument is entirely valid; it fails only because of the falsity of one of the premises - specifically, "black belts are noble." I think what Martialart is trying to do is assert that black belts are in fact noble (which would both make the argument perfectly sound and prove that John is a noble person).

[algernon]

Right at you, Toptomcat!

[Martialart]

I would like to thank everyone for sharing their opinion on this topic. It's an important topic to me. One day, I would like to write something on this topic, and I appreciate everyone helping me to focus my opinion on the matter.

To sum up, I would say, from my perspective, that nobility is real. We know it when we see it. Noble classes or castes, on the other hand, are false and built upon the perception of others. We can choose to be noble, but we can't choose whether or not we are in a noble caste. Others put us there.

To the masses, a black belt is considered to be in a warrior caste within society. It's a type of nobility. You may not think this is true, but the proof is out there whether it be a kid who idealizes the martial arts or the black belt him- or herself who would never give up their status. The social caste, which I call a warrior caste, does exist in the collective minds of society.

The individual can choose to accept that and try to meet societies expectations of their noble caste by being truly noble (and in fact, most martial artists expect and hope their black belts will act nobly), or they can be anti-social and ruin socieities expectations (e.g., a bully black belt, a pedophile preist, a mean nurse, a doltish college graduate, etc.).

These are the conculsions I've come to on the subject.