Where's the War?

[Martialart]

All I have asked for is the criteria you used to make your broad generalizations about runners & you have responded by telling me you don’t want to provide me with an answer (evading) and you think I’m very opinionated (attacking). Evading questions that relate directly to the hypothesis you have formulated is a defense mechanism to justify…? Attacking my position without discrediting my assertion is trying to bait me into a discussion of emotion – I won’t do that. Again I don’t respond out of hostility, I could sit in a pub and talk about this all night long

I’m asking for concrete answers not out of defense but out of need to understand your thinking. If you state that runners are running from something, you are making a very broad generalization that applies to billions of people. A person may run for transportation. Another person may run because they have a medical issue like poor circulation and running help alleviate the problem. Another person may run to aid in weight control. Another person may run to aid their ability in other sports. I could give endless different examples of why someone chooses to run and those examples may not involve some deep physiological issue.

Fair enough. I think people choose the things they do based on deep psychological issues. The profession they ultimately choose, the type of exercise they do, etc. Might there be other reasons? Sure, of course, but when there are also other choices they could make that would have the same result, then there must be a reason for the choice the did make.

You apparently don't believe that's true. Fair enough.

I brought up the weightlifting scenario because if your generalization is correct, you should be able to apply it each person that “practices” something. For example, macadam covered roads are slippery when wet – is a very broad generalization but it is a generalization can apply to roadways throughout the world therefore it is a generalization that can be easy defended in a discussion.

True, and I cannot give a research paper on my opinion at this time. I'm appealing to what I believe is prima face or obvious just by looking at it. A bodybuilder, for instance who develops his or her physique beyond anything remotely natural may be doing it, as Sensei8 says, just because. All I'm saying is I don't buy that. It's too simple for something so obviously extreme. So, I suspect a deeper psychological motivation. Don't you?

You see, if you make a declaration like I believe “X”, then you need to provide justification for that belief otherwise your just throwing around opinions. Einstein didn’t just say e=MC2, he provided justifcation. Truth be told, I can be opinionated but I haven’t really interjected opinions into this discussion

First, I don't have mathmatical or statistical proof. It is my opinion, and this is an informal forum, not a peer reviewed magazine. Right? Second, I think you may need greater insight when you say you haven't interjected opinions into this discussion in the same paragraph where you have just stated an opinion. It's your opinion that I need to justify my declarations. It's your opinion that you have not interjected opinions in this discussion, etc.

But all that aside, I agree. I have merely stated my opinion on the matter.

For the record, asking me why I practice martial arts and asking me why I’m at war are 2 totally different things.

The term "martial" means war. I'm not sure how they are totally different things. But if you are not at war, fine. Then my opinion doesn't apply to you, and I wouldn't expect you to answer the question in the OP.

[algernon]

I think people choose the things they do based on deep psychological issues. The profession they ultimately choose, the type of exercise they do, etc. Might there be other reasons? Sure, of course, but when there are also other choices they could make that would have the same result, then there must be a reason for the choice the did make

Yes, everyone has reasons for choosing the things that they do, but it cannot be inferred that those reasons are psychological. They may play soccer because it was the first sport they learned, or baseball because it is popular in their town, or hockey because they have friends who play, or basketball, or they might fish because they like to eat lake trout.

The assumption that all of the mentioned examples of physical exercise produce the same results is faulty. Swimming and running, for example, are hardly comparable. If the result of their endeavors was the same, we could expect an Olympic boxer to fare just as well on parallel bars, and vice versa. Yes, some people practice martial arts because of "deep psychological issues," but there is no justification for extrapolating that to include every martial artist.

[Chitsu]

For me, the learning a martial art delivers self defence as a happy by product of good training, but self defence is not the goal.

I teach a martial art first and foremost. I often lose potential students because I tell them straight - this is not a class in self defence and it is not a great way to learn SD. I tell them there are plenty of courses they can attend that will deliver results in that area far more efficiently.

IMO people today are far too eager to bind-up martial arts with the military / combat / competition (UFC) / SD and even street fighting - when actually it is the antithesis of what I understand as correct training goals.

Chitsu

[Martialart]

For me, the learning a martial art delivers self defence as a happy by product of good training, but self defence is not the goal.

I teach a martial art first and foremost. I often lose potential students because I tell them straight - this is not a class in self defence and it is not a great way to learn SD. I tell them there are plenty of courses they can attend that will deliver results in that area far more efficiently.

IMO people today are far too eager to bind-up martial arts with the military / combat / competition (UFC) / SD and even street fighting - when actually it is the antithesis of what I understand as correct training goals.

Chitsu

I got to ask, what's Car-Park Jutsu?

[bushido_man96]

Call me a hopeless romantic, but a big part of why I study the martial arts is so I will know that wherever I go, the strongest man in the room will also be a good one. Self-defense is too narrow a phrase for what I want to be able to deal with effectively: I want to be able to defend others should it become necessary, and ideally to be able to defend myself without risk of lethal injury to the aggressor.

Additionally, I think your designation of ‘white belt techniques’ as those that are non-lethal and simple and ‘black belt techniques’ as those that are lethal and complicated is a gross oversimplification. Someone who’s trained to an excellent standard will be better able to calibrate the level of force they use than someone who’s trained to a lesser one, not handicapped by the sheer volume of ‘lethal’ training they’ve absorbed.

See, this is what I don't buy (no offense, especially when you realize I'm only writing this to help myself understand--I'm not presuming to teach anyone anything. I am being taught by your opinions). I don't buy that the study of martial arts is for self-defense. I think that is a facade, albeit an unconscious one. I've taken self-defense: it's called non-violent crisis intervention training, and reserve police officer training. In the first, I learned how to take down an aggressive patient, and or escape from that patient. In the second, I learned how to fire a weapon at a target and quickly reload, how to use a side-handle batton, and how to use pepper spray. That's self defense. I keep a Barretta 9mm 92FS on my bedside table at all times. At work, when I talk with a patient, I covertly keep a side stance, my hands out of my pockets, and a mindful presence about what they are doing with their hands--even with the cool patients. That's self-defense. None of that stuff took very long to learn. (By the way, I am not a reserve police officer at this time.).

But in martial arts, self-defense is a side-effect of the training. Because it is martial training perfected to the level of an art, it naturally gives one the ability to fight an opponent, but by green belt, we are doing kata that has nothing to do with self-defense. By green belt, we are moving into an entirely different sphere of combat, and I believe that is a psychological sphere of combat. If you're into weapons, especially the Japanese katana, like in Iaido, you have completely left the realm of realistic self-defense. A gun is for self-defense. A sharp katana in trained hands is so mercilessly effective, it's not about self-defense.

Think about it: modern martial arts, from Funakoshi's Shotokan Karate on, has come about in a world that has had superior battlefield weapons. It enjoyed it's greatest spread throughout the world after we dropped two nuclear weapons on Japan. Everyone just about in the US has a gun, and yet, martial arts is more popular here than it is in most Asian countries.

All I'm asking is that when you are doing kata, when you are training in sparring, when you are training with your chosen weapon, what are you fighting? After all, you could have taken up golf or gymnastics--if all you wanted to do was challenge yourself.

What do you think?

I disagree with your assessment here. Just because guns and nuclear weapons are a more efficient way of taking lives, doesn't mean that physical Martial Arts training are null and void. I am in the same line of work that tallgeese is in, and the truth is that I will put hands on people many more times in my career than I will draw my gun. So, all that time spent on the range, albeit very valuable, is not going to be used as much as the hours I spend on hand-to-hand combat time.

When I am doing a form or working the bag over, it isn't always a "battle" with something. Sometimes, its working towards getting better at something physical in particular, like a side kick. So, at that point, the side kick is the focus, not some other underlying demon that needs to be exorcised.

Training to fight doesn't have to be a "fight while training." If that is what motivates you, then that is fantastic. But, not everyone else sees it the same way.

It is also important to note that when discussions like this start, not everyone's opinions will jive. But, it is important for us all to know that everyone's opinion is welcome.

[GeoGiant]

First, with reference to profession, you are assuming that people understand the results (both long and short term) BEFORE they make their choice. Have you heard the phase, “if I only knew then what I know now…? If your assertion is true why would anybody pick a low paying unsatisfying job in a thriving economy? The more likely scenario is that a person’s circumstances and environment have played a larger role in their choices than a systematic analysis of cause and effect. The lack of options or education to understand the bigger picture is something you don’t appear to consider.

Second, you are taking my statement and stretching to fit your into argument. I didn’t reference someone who “develops his or her physique beyond anything remotely natural”… I didn’t reference the extreme, you did and then you used your distortion of my words to make your point. Not all bodybuilders inject steroids to look un-nature. I suggest you search natural bodybuilding online. Maybe someone who lifts weights doesn’t like to run or participate in group sporting activities. Maybe some who has bone or muscle issues or someone who has rehabbed from an accident started to lift weights and found that it gave them adrenalin rush so they decided that would be their form of exercise.

You are stating your opinion then you are telling others that they are wrong because their opinion doesn’t fit the mold of your opinion, hence some of the reaction you have received. All I did was challenge your opinion in the manner you challenged others… but rather than say you are wrong because I don’t believe it, I’ve said show me why you are right. For the record, you have yet to quantify anything other than to state “I believe”.

[Chitsu]

Car park Jutsu = Parking lot jitsu in American I guess??

A former sensei of mine used to use it when referring to techniques and/or training that got a little out of shape - ie they would be more at home in the car park of a pub after chucking out time for example.

Chitsu

[bushido_man96]

I think the general avoidance in answering the question points to the fact that the motivations are very deep within us. And, yes, to the one who asks is a long distance runner running away from something. I believe so. And I believe a martial artists is a person at war. And all I asked is what is your war?

I don't think there is avoidance here. I truly think that someone can do something just because they like it; there doesn't have to be some psychological underlying principle behind it.

I like to think of myself as a simple man...there isn't much going on upstairs with me. My wife will ask me at times "whacha thinkin'?" and my simple response is usually nothing. And that is the case. I don't have to always be thinking or analyzing all that goes on around me, or even that I am involved in at the time. I just do it. And usually, its because I just enjoy it.

The cop says he trains for his job--but that doesn't explain training in techniques that are designed to kill and maim, especially at the black belt level. It explains perfecting white belt techniques, but nothing else.

I think this statement is a result of the rank system of most Eastern styles, and not something that is a hard and fast rule. Its because I think people get caught up in rank all the time. As a black belt, I don't do much of anything that I didn't or couldn't do as a white belt...I can just do it better now, because I have more time in. Its not so much about rank in, but time in, which gives the experience to make one better.

[sperki]

At some point this turns into a discussion of semantics. I'm not convinced that practicing a fighting art is the same thing as fighting a war, at least in the standard, contemporary sense, with munitions and tanks. Most of us probably aren't training with the thought that we'll really have to break somebodies knee to end a confrontation. Martialart, my understanding of your question is not "why did you enroll in MA in the first place?" but instead is something else, like why do you stick with it....but I'm not sure that I completely understand. I suppose, after reading various responses that I'm totally lost by the "war" portion of the the question. But maybe the LEO's could say there fighting a war on drugs (and immigration if they're in NM ) Do I have stress, sure; does karate help me deal with it, of course. But if I'm at war with anything I'm unaware of it, but I do appreciate the benefits regular training has on my quality of life.

[Kuma]

as a cop, it's actually much more common for me to put hands on people than it is to do any of the other things you listed. I've put unarmed skills to work plenty during my time, more than any other physical set I train for.

So, for me, that's a good reason to train.

Ditto.

The cop says he trains for his job--but that doesn't explain training in techniques that are designed to kill and maim, especially at the black belt level. It explains perfecting white belt techniques, but nothing else.

Sometimes LEOs do need to use lethal force, and in that instance when you're fighting for your life you need to use everything you can to make sure you and/or your partners get home that night. Besides, even "white belt techniques" can kill somebody (i.e. rear naked choke). The nice thing about proper training is you know many more ways how to end the conflict without seriously injuring your opponent.

You train because there may come a day when it is needed. And when the time comes, you WON'T rise to the occassion...you WILL sink to the level of your training.

My all-time favorite saying.

You never know when your martial arts training will come in handy. Everyone always think everyone else is going to be a victim and not then. Problem is, YOU are "everyone else" as well. Many people never think it will happen to them and consequently are victims. Training helps you become less of a victim and more of a fighter.