Where's the War?

[Martialart]

Call me a hopeless romantic, but a big part of why I study the martial arts is so I will know that wherever I go, the strongest man in the room will also be a good one. Self-defense is too narrow a phrase for what I want to be able to deal with effectively: I want to be able to defend others should it become necessary, and ideally to be able to defend myself without risk of lethal injury to the aggressor.

Additionally, I think your designation of ‘white belt techniques’ as those that are non-lethal and simple and ‘black belt techniques’ as those that are lethal and complicated is a gross oversimplification. Someone who’s trained to an excellent standard will be better able to calibrate the level of force they use than someone who’s trained to a lesser one, not handicapped by the sheer volume of ‘lethal’ training they’ve absorbed.

See, this is what I don't buy (no offense, especially when you realize I'm only writing this to help myself understand--I'm not presuming to teach anyone anything. I am being taught by your opinions). I don't buy that the study of martial arts is for self-defense. I think that is a facade, albeit an unconscious one. I've taken self-defense: it's called non-violent crisis intervention training, and reserve police officer training. In the first, I learned how to take down an aggressive patient, and or escape from that patient. In the second, I learned how to fire a weapon at a target and quickly reload, how to use a side-handle batton, and how to use pepper spray. That's self defense. I keep a Barretta 9mm 92FS on my bedside table at all times. At work, when I talk with a patient, I covertly keep a side stance, my hands out of my pockets, and a mindful presence about what they are doing with their hands--even with the cool patients. That's self-defense. None of that stuff took very long to learn. (By the way, I am not a reserve police officer at this time.).

But in martial arts, self-defense is a side-effect of the training. Because it is martial training perfected to the level of an art, it naturally gives one the ability to fight an opponent, but by green belt, we are doing kata that has nothing to do with self-defense. By green belt, we are moving into an entirely different sphere of combat, and I believe that is a psychological sphere of combat. If you're into weapons, especially the Japanese katana, like in Iaido, you have completely left the realm of realistic self-defense. A gun is for self-defense. A sharp katana in trained hands is so mercilessly effective, it's not about self-defense.

Think about it: modern martial arts, from Funakoshi's Shotokan Karate on, has come about in a world that has had superior battlefield weapons. It enjoyed it's greatest spread throughout the world after we dropped two nuclear weapons on Japan. Everyone just about in the US has a gun, and yet, martial arts is more popular here than it is in most Asian countries.

All I'm asking is that when you are doing kata, when you are training in sparring, when you are training with your chosen weapon, what are you fighting? After all, you could have taken up golf or gymnastics--if all you wanted to do was challenge yourself.

What do you think?

[Martialart]

…. you are creating a definition of what a martial artists is and then telling us that we aren’t answering your question because our answers don’t address your definition. Have you considered that your definition may not apply to all people in all cultures?

Getting back to my mention of runners or weightlifters. You state that runners run because they are running from “something” – please qualifying that statement.

Does the same logic you applied to runners apply to weightlifters and if so, how?

I don't want to get too concrete in my answers of your questions. Concrete thinking is a psychological defense mechanism, and it's not needed here. It's not my purpose to win an argument or change you're way of thinking. I just want to explore an issue.

I believe behind every human action there is a reason. One puts food in their mouth because they are hungry. One chooses running over aerobics classes for a reason, and martial arts over gymnastics or mountain climbing for a reason.

I am indeed trying to define the martial artist. And I realize not everyone has the same reasons for doing it. But when someone says they just want the challenge or the competition, it begs the question why they didn't take up soccer or rugby or little league football.

If you say you only like the "fun" of it, or the challenge or competition, and if upon examination, you see no other reason why you are attracted to it, then you are probably not the person I should be talking to. There's nothing wrong with that--except one thing: you seem very opinionated that what I'm saying is wrong about you, and that only makes me more intrigued.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Martialart

[Martialart]

when I am doing the hard and fast and powerful techniques, it's sometimes like I am fighting with everything that has ever angered and frustrated me, yet I feel peaceful inside. Like my body is doing the fighting and my mind is totally calm. Which kata is that, calm within the storm or something?

When I am doing a palm-heel strike against a target. I'm very good. I'm very powerful, and I love it. I have really good hip twist, dead on precision and power that at times shocks me. I don't kyup because I'm affraid of how it will sound. When I finish, I'm in a perfect front stance. I actually impress myself.

But when I'm doing it I see a bully from when I was 9 years old and powerless to stop him. He bust into our apartment where I was alone with my sister. We were always left alone to fend for ourselves--who knows where good ol' mom was. He beat me up and knocked the wind out of me. He was always beating me up. The incident was 38 years ago. The fear, anger, humiliation, and powerlessness remains. If anyone ever challenged me in that way again, I honestly think I could push their nose into their brain before they knew what hit them. I think I could do that, because I fight a demon every time in class when we practice that white-belt contact skill. I love it when we do that drill.

My goal is to perfect one of the black belt hyungs by envisioning a demon in every move of it--just like I do with the palm heal strike. I have no shortage of demons.

And what are the demons: guilt, regret, humiliations, bad choices, traumas, missed opportunities, and enough fear from my childhood to last several lifetimes. I have many demons.

Apparently no one else in here does, except I'm intrigued by what you said. Apparently for the others up above it's all about fun, sport, exercise, love, good times and Karate picnics. But I have a psychiatric background, and I'm always a bit leery at those who smile and say "Everythings great!" while I'm applying antibiotic ointment to the stiches on their arm.

[still kicking]

Except sometimes people put food in their mouth because it tastes good and they like it or maybe just because it's there, or maybe because they are depressed and lonely and it fills them up. Maybe for a combination of reasons, or different reasons at different times.

Not to nit-pick, but concrete thinking isn't really a defense mechanism, it's a cognitive limitation. I don't think people are demonstrating concrete thinking when they say they train for fitness or self-defense or whatever. Since you seem to be interested in psychology and philosophy, you probably know that projection is a common psychological phenomenon, i.e. seeing in others things that are actually in ourselves.

If you say you only like the "fun" of it, or the challenge or competition, and if upon examination, you see no other reason why you are attracted to it, then you are probably not the person I should be talking to. There's nothing wrong with that--except one thing: you seem very opinionated that what I'm saying is wrong about you.

and then you say

I don't buy that the study of martial arts is for self-defense. I think that is a facade

I enjoy analyzing things myself, to a point, but maybe some people really do want to just train for self defense, and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Toptomcat]

What do you think?

I think that you're underrating the value of being able to deliver a calibrated amount of force in a self-defense situation: you only seem able to conceive of using martial arts in a warlike manner, at maximum and lethal amplitude. The purpose to which martial arts skills are suited is almost completely different from the purpose to which a firearm or nuclear weapon is suited, and I think your use of the analogy reveals the flaws in your thinking.

I think you have a mental model of martial arts that's fundamentally faulty. Choosing some arbitrary rank of karate past which you are learning skills that are suited not to self-defense, but to some other, hypothesized activity- your 'entirely different sphere'- is an exercise in futility: past green belt you simply refine your understanding of distance, timing, movement, and striking in such a way as to benefit the activity of self-defense as much or more than what you learned from white belt to green belt. These skills are the most important difference between a black belt and a green belt: the techniques are tools used to help the student train them. There may be an argument that refinement of those skills past a certain point is likely to be an excessive amount of effort expended for a relatively insignificant gain in personal safety, but it's not one you're making.

I think you didn't read my post with particular care- it contains a number of qualifications about how and why I thought what I do goes beyond 'self-defense' in the strict sense, none of which were addressed very explicitly or very well in your reply.

I think that you settled on your conclusion before you asked the question and are increasingly displaying an unwillingness to be convinced otherwise or to move past your initial set of assumptions, even when they've been respectfully and rigorously questioned by more or less everyone else who's posted in this thread, and I think that your propensity to psychoanalyze those asking about your argument rather than addressing their points is beginning to border on the tendentious.

[Martialart]

I enjoy analyzing things myself, to a point, but maybe some people really do want to just train for self defense, and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

No, I hear you. And sure I'm projecting. I'm projecting and seeing if anything sticks. You say I'm not describing your motives or needs, fine. But on the other hand, maybe if you had a war to fight, you'd become much better at self-defense.

Nevertheless, those who come to class for fun, socialization, exercise and competition will I'm sure always outnumber those who have come to fight personal demons. Some people will pick up a pair of nunchakus or sais or a sword and it will be a pretty dance. Others will do so because it's a more intensive therapy for them to use against the demons they have to face in their mind.

[Martialart]

I think that your propensity to psychoanalyze those asking about your argument rather than addressing their points is beginning to border on the tendentious.

Well then, apparently it doesn't apply to you. But sure, I have a point of view that seems to make sense to me, and I'm bouncing it around in this forum. I don't know why you seem offended by this. I don't know why you call yourself the "top tomcat," and I certainly don't know the reasons why you are in martial arts. So, if my theory doesn't apply to you, it really is enough to say so. You don't have to defeat it, do you? It simply doesn't apply to you.

[Blade96]

I'm gonna go with Bob-sensei's post here.

At first i wanted to train because i saw wesley snipes do it - Shotokan - in blade (hence my username and lol dont laugh)

Then I figured out that it is A WAY OF LIFE. and its not just for combat. Just like a military person lives and trains in wherever they are stationed. they may not actually ever fight a war. But it is a way of life for them. and they cannot leave it. Because it is so much ingrained in them.

Because it is also about the person - hence why they call it an art. It builds you up, personally. You just feel so good.

It isnt only about combat.

Also helps my spirit recover from the damage it suffered as a result of my having been abused when i was younger. So in a sense I guess I do fight a war of sorts.

Stillkicking, do you mean the Heian/pinan (i hope I used the word pinan right; forgive me, I am Shotokan) series of kata when you asked about the calm before the storm? Because heian means 'peaceful' as in peaceful mind.

[sensei8]

The martial arts are everything to me, much more than the art of warfare; fighting, for that is just a portion of it. Hence, the warfare isn’t the totality of the martial arts, and it shouldn’t be.

[GeoGiant]

All I have asked for is the criteria you used to make your broad generalizations about runners & you have responded by telling me you don’t want to provide me with an answer (evading) and you think I’m very opinionated (attacking). Evading questions that relate directly to the hypothesis you have formulated is a defense mechanism to justify…? Attacking my position without discrediting my assertion is trying to bait me into a discussion of emotion – I won’t do that. Again I don’t respond out of hostility, I could sit in a pub and talk about this all night long

I’m asking for concrete answers not out of defense but out of need to understand your thinking. If you state that runners are running from something, you are making a very broad generalization that applies to billions of people. A person may run for transportation. Another person may run because they have a medical issue like poor circulation and running help alleviate the problem. Another person may run to aid in weight control. Another person may run to aid their ability in other sports. I could give endless different examples of why someone chooses to run and those examples may not involve some deep physiological issue.

I brought up the weightlifting scenario because if your generalization is correct, you should be able to apply it each person that “practices” something. For example, macadam covered roads are slippery when wet – is a very broad generalization but it is a generalization can apply to roadways throughout the world therefore it is a generalization that can be easy defended in a discussion.

You see, if you make a declaration like I believe “X”, then you need to provide justification for that belief otherwise your just throwing around opinions. Einstein didn’t just say e=MC2, he provided justifcation. Truth be told, I can be opinionated but I haven’t really interjected opinions into this discussion

For the record, asking me why I practice martial arts and asking me why I’m at war are 2 totally different things.