more Karate in the UFC

[isshinryu5toforever]

I would say that pressure testing your training is a way to develop the mental awareness to consider your options even under duress.

You don't need to practice gouging someone in the eye while you're being attacked. You need to practice being attacked. The more you've been put in high pressure situations, the more you can act not just on instinct, but you can consider your options. Someone who has never been pressure tested will revert to only what they know without the ability to be creative. Someone who has been pressure tested many times will have the ability to respond, assess the situation, and act accordingly.

That's not to say that eye gouges and the like don't have a place, but like I said, there are more useful things that you can pressure test that will put you at a greater advantage.

Hitting the head with your fist is already hard, hitting just the eye with your finger is even harder. If that's all you want to practice, that's fine with me, but your time could be better spent on other things.

[tallgeese]

Getting used to being attacked is important. I agree.

However, so is repping tools that you plan to use. The instinctive response this builds is what allows you to continue to use them when you're heart rate is going into panic mode. Research has borne this out.

The difficulty of hitting an eye is great. However, it's much greater if one never trains it. Additionally, there is some physiological considerations that will make it a more effective tool;however, you need to be drilling it to learn these and how to apply them during conflict.

Nor do I believe I said anywhere that this is "all" one should practice. In fact, I think I have argued several times across this board that no one should ever put all their eggs in any one basket. Doing so is sure to set one up for failure. Taking the time to develop multiple weapons across multiple ranges for multiple threat levels and situations and testing them with realistic simulations is the key to successful sd work.

[isshinryu5toforever]

You never did say that was all someone should practice. Someone else said that it penalizes everyone from their school to not include those in competition, which tells me that they rely heavily on things like eye gouges and groin strikes.

Like I said, I'd rather train for other things that are more broadly applicable. If I can poke them in the eye, I'm certain there are other more broadly applicable things I can do that are just as effective.

[MasterPain]

Actually if you re-read my post, you'll notice there is a touch of sarcasm to the entire thing. I had also said that combat boots should be allowed in UFC. Our school strives to be a complete combat system, so we do allow what would be illegal strikes in mma in our sparring and ground and pound. Eye strikes are mostly practiced with goggles on in the context of practicing knife defense. We do not neglect good old fashioned fisticuffs in our training. I feel that a person can more easily not do things like downward elbow strikes on the ground and punches to the back of the skull from rear mount in a cage fight than they could do something in a self defense situation that they have not trained. My philosophy is that to have a good self defense system, a person should do everything that the mma people are doing, as well as everything they are not allowed to do because it hurts people too efficiently. I believe I also said that Escrima practitioners are penalized. This was also somewhat sarcastic as I don't believe a dagger should be allowed in a cage fight. There are times it would be useful in self defense, although only in a certain context. Unarmed self defense is much more needed in most situations, however I feel that it is still sensible to learn the use of a blade. i feel a person should train all tools available to them. I personally know very little concerning the use of a handgun or an armored personnel carrier. Tallgeese however has put some hours into them. That does not mean he relies totally on his sidearm, it's just another tool to use in a given context.

[isshinryu5toforever]

While I would like to see the gi allowed, geet get caught and ankles get twisted. The rules do play against Judo in the fact that being slammed on a mat doesn't hurt much, but a hard surface would result in serious injury on a regular basis. Upkicks and downkicks have also been banned because they are too dangerous. Biting, eye-gouging and groin kicks are all banned because they can cause permanent damage, which penalizes everyone from my school. Knees to the head on the ground are illegal because they make people dumber.

The rules do hurt the use of some arts. You don't see many Escrima people in the UFC, and TKD would be much more relevant if everyone wore combat boots. But the rules are there for safety. No one in thier right mind wants to fight on the Mortal Kombat Pit stage.

By the way, I do strip down to my underwear before a fight, while yelling PANCAKES!!!!!

Sarcasm doesn't translate well through text.

That's especially true when the entire first half of the post, which I've italicized, doesn't sound like sarcasm. I took more issue with the line I underlined than the rest, which was obviously offering up a bit of sarcastic humor. Not everyone is going to read your posts with the same intention you write them.

[Lupin1]

I would say that pressure testing your training is a way to develop the mental awareness to consider your options even under duress.

You don't need to practice gouging someone in the eye while you're being attacked. You need to practice being attacked. The more you've been put in high pressure situations, the more you can act not just on instinct, but you can consider your options. Someone who has never been pressure tested will revert to only what they know without the ability to be creative. Someone who has been pressure tested many times will have the ability to respond, assess the situation, and act accordingly.

That's not to say that eye gouges and the like don't have a place, but like I said, there are more useful things that you can pressure test that will put you at a greater advantage.

Hitting the head with your fist is already hard, hitting just the eye with your finger is even harder. If that's all you want to practice, that's fine with me, but your time could be better spent on other things.

Some dude in my class who was a Marine made a very good point that most people don't have the stomach to dig their fingers into someone's eye socket and pull an eye out and I sort of agree with him. That's gross. He said (and I'm not sure if he's making this up or not because I think animal rights groups would be all over them if he wasn't) that in the Marines they would bring in a dog and get someone to try to gouge the dog's eye out to see if anyone could do it and not one of the big tough Marines had the stomach to. So I wouldn't count on that technique in any fight.

[tallgeese]

There is a big difference between ripping out someone's pet's eye and dismantling an attacker.

Also, just because one person will not choose to use a tactic, regardless of that persons background, does not make it null and void to everyone.

[Groinstrike]

*sigh*

How hard do you think biting and eye gouging is? You're fooling yourself if you don't think most if not all of pro MMA fighters could also use the same tactics.

The fact is the ones making a living from this are training full time with excellent conditioning, working pads, doing bag work, and full contact sparring.

There have been MMA promotions that have allowed the dogi and the UFC used to (Royce Gracie in the earlier ones, anybody).

Karate can work but one style alone won't work in MMA, just the way it is. Adapt or die.

My original statement about eye gouging and biting not being hard to do..neck cranks aren't hard to do and most people don't do them full force when they grapple but they can pull it off in competition.

I seriously doubt most if any of you have much experience eye gouging and biting, too. If you do, you've been very lucky not to get arrested, have some dumb sparring partners to put up with it or are lying. No room for debate here. People that fight MMA, do BJJ tournaments, Judo tournaments, Knockdown karate tournaments, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, etc. get EXPERIENCE fighting against non compliant opponents but those of you focusing on eye gouging and biting are "dancing" with people that are dancing with you.

You have a right to your opinion, but to say that our sparring partners are dancing with us is borderline style bashing, which i believe is prohibited on this forum. As a member of this system i take great offense to anyone that, without firsthand experience training our system, would slander it as such. I am not a black belt, i do my best to train for every situation that may be presented. Our art say that we must be proficient at all ranges, this includes everything from grappling to being a decent marksman with a rifle and everything in between. I train Bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc., For you to say that techniques such as eye gouges are to simple to require basic practice and application is very short sided of you. In Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do, he recognizes that the human body has three primary targets, the groin and two eyes. If you want to say that our system and those who practice it are "dumb" or that Masterpain is "lying", at least come train with us first. Adapt or die, believe me, were not dead yet.

[Liver Punch]

I think that all of this has a lot of context.

A punch is a tool. A submission is a tool. A bite is a tool. An eye gouge is a tool. A wrench is a tool. I wouldn't bite a bolt, or use a wrench to secure a takedown. I wouldn't bite someone just because they tried to punch me - that's stupid.

If I ask the average male if he needs to practice throwing a punch, his response would be "no". Anyone can throw a "haymaker" with enough force to hurt someone. Does that mean that time spent working punches is wasted? Of course not.

I can most likely out strike, out wrestle, and out grapple everyone I pass on the street every day. Does that mean my punches, kicks, takedown, and grappling don't need to be practiced and advanced? Of course not.

The question becomes the, what am I - the martial artist - training for?

Are you training for MMA? Then anything illegal is a waste of your time. Are you training for a kickboxing? Grappling isn't time well spent.

Ultimately, if you're training for the worst case scenario and everything that leads up to that, then you should be training: Cardio, strength, kicks, punches, takedowns, clinch fighting, grappling, locks, holds, multiple attackers, evasion tactics, fighting under duress, defending yourself after being hit, or maced, or with one arm out of use, and the offense and defense of knives, guns, improvised weapons, and others.

Can you hit something the size of a quarter with your finger in a real life scenario, something like an eye? Can you hit a man in the groin from any position, regardless of motion and terrain? If you don't practice it, the answer is "I Don't Know". And I don't know is a terrible answer for a life and death situation.

Personally, I don't want to strike the groin, I don't want to gouge an eye, I don't want to break a bone, and I don't want to take a life. To be honest, I don't want to get in a fight at all. Almost all of the time you can avoid a fight period. But this notion that "if I can poke them in the eye, I'm certain there are other more broadly applicable things I can do that are just as effective." is naive. I'm not certain what will be available to me in a situation that I cannot foresee. If I knew for certain what was available, I wouldn't be in that situation. If the lives of my family are being threatened and I have to eliminate a target with my bare hands quickly, nothing is more effective than taking his sight. Does that sound extreme? Yes. Should we as martial artists be prepared for the extreme? I thought that was the idea behind all of this.

I train, typically, 6 days a week. I lift weights, I run (often times up and down a hill with my nose plugged and a snorkel to restrict my breathing) I work all aspects of striking, takedowns, grappling, locks, holds, and weapons. I practice with my knives, guns, clubs, and other popular weapons, as well as realistic improvised weapons. I practice these things in all situations imaginable. I train for single attackers and multiple attackers. I train to escape, to control, to disarm, to hurt, to mame, and to kill. I have all of those tools in my toolbox, and as a martial artist, my goal is to have a big enough toolbox to be prepared for every situation possible.

If you want to be able to defend yourself to the best of your ability in any situation, and you're not practicing the techniques that you might need to end a life-threatening situation, you're fooling yourself and you're fooling your training partners. I compete in every combative contest I possibly can, and it's a good experience builder, and it prepares me for a lot that real combat has to offer. But the next time you watch MMA, see what happens when someone with REAL EXPERIENCE does when they get hit in the groin or poked in the eye. I wouldn't call a grown man begging for a time out and pulling his knees to his chest DANCING per se, but that's just me.

[isshinryu5toforever]

The reason why many fight sports people advocate for alive training of techniques that have been proven effective in the ring is because they are equally applicable outside the ring. If you can use an ippon seonagi on a non-complaint partner, you are likely going to be able to do it against an attacker on the street.

If you're trying to gouge someone in the eye from a non-static position, then the defenses are the same for other techniques you train. If it's from a standing striking position, it's like defending a jab, hook, or cross. In a clinch, it's like dealing with a cross face/necktie. On the ground, you're worried about controlling all their limbs anyways. Basically, since an eye gouge is an extension of your hand, you're practicing shutting down those same extensions with other techniques. Unless you have a detachable hand that you can throw at people, in which case, I want to see that in action haha. or I would suggest you use a knife if you've got that kind of accuracy.

If you want to be prepared for every single possible scenario, join a special operations unit in the US military. That's the only way you have the time to get the necessary training to deal with everything from a standard firefight to CQC to retaking a plane from terrorists. If you have all the time to do that on your own, then I would ask why you aren't part of a special operations unit or if you've retired from one. Otherwise, you'll need a lot of classes from a lot of different places to be truly adequately trained for every scenario.