more Karate in the UFC

[Taiikuka]

The fact is under the current rules being on the mat is the best way to win because you get a ton of points by take-downs. In the old days (I know Gracie won the 1st 3 but that was because he was so good not his style was superior) you fought to a win no rounds no points it lended itself to having multiple arts fight its just not as true anymore.

[MasterPain]

The fact is under the current rules being on the mat is the best way to win because you get a ton of points by take-downs. In the old days (I know Gracie won the 1st 3 but that was because he was so good not his style was superior) you fought to a win no rounds no points it lended itself to having multiple arts fight its just not as true anymore.

Gracie's style was superior ON THE GROUND to others at that time. His stand up was nothing but takedowns and a kick that says "please throw me". Ron Van Cleef was a great karate guy, even if he was old, and the fight did not last long enough for age to matter. Ron Van Cleef immediately decided to learn some ground fighting. And the Gracie family learned some striking. Karate could be and is some fighters base art, but must be complimented with sprawls and enough ground fighting ability to get back up. I think there are still more arts there than we realize. The BJJ crowd has added Greco wrestling and Judo. I've heard the arguement that everyone is using Muay Thai, however it's usually Muay Thai with some Boxing and Karate thrown in.

[ShoriKid]

I'd love to see more effective karate-ka in MMA. The problem is the most popular choice of the day is Wrestling, BJJ and Muy Tai. They are taking talented athletes and training them in those styles. Many are already coming in with a wrestling base. Its the quickest route to being a good MMA fighter, not the only way though.

You see a lot of wrestlers not because it's the "quickest route", but for a couple of other reasons. A wrestler good enough to compete at a college level has 3 options. Coach, if you're that good and a spot is open, go to the Olympics, if you're that good and lucky, stop competing with no professional outlet for your spot. Now, MMA offers a sport with an income that rewards very strong, conditioned and disciplined athletes.

I just wonder, and I think this from seeing different schools over the years, why doesn't karate attract the gifted athletes in numbers like other martial arts with competitive venues does? During the early days of karate in America, 60s-70s and the very early 80s(pure opinion here), there seemed to be more naturally talented athletes in the art. Solve that riddle and you will see more people with a karate base, that you can readily see, entering into karate.

Something else that will help is when older attitudes change. That MMA is not a worthy pursuit and only those with bad attitude need compete. When that changes the best instructors will point their best students toward MMA without shame or hesitation.

[tallgeese]

Something else that will help is when older attitudes change. That MMA is not a worthy pursuit and only those with bad attitude need compete. When that changes the best instructors will point their best students toward MMA without shame or hesitation.

I'd disagree a bit here. Sure, there is attitude in MMA, much as any athletic endevor. Yes, I'd like to see that change. However, I dont' thing that makes it an unworthy endevor.

It's an excellent athletic accomplishment, to compete in full contact. MMA in itself also provides a relitively effective unarmed method of self defense, a major goal of any martial artist. I have a hard time faulting them simply bacause they are based out of a competitive outlet.

Competiton is not a bad thing. In fact, it instills some valuable things- the abilty to goal set, pursue via training and hard work that goal, put aside fear and face an obstical in front of everyone. All good things.

No, it is not a charater buidling device, but most sport psycologist will tell you that despite retoric, neither is traditional sport. We might teach team work, espirit de corpe, and the ability to perserve in traditional team sports, but we do not teach "charater".

I think also, with the advent of MMA as it's own niche art, we need to stop to consider that perhaps we need to make sure that students are training inthe right venue to meet their goals. If a student is bound and determined to fight MMA, then why try to keep in in a traditional karate school. It is not striving towards his goals. Better to refer him to a quality gym more focused to developing and integraing multiple diciplines related to fighting in the ring at those specific venues. Kata is not pushing him towards his goal, nor is time spent in tradional weapons or stances. Get him somewhere he can maximize his time.

Conversely, someone wanting to be part of an traditionl linage, who desires a rigid structure of response to attack patterns, like small joint manipulation, or who wants to become proficient in weaponry probibly should be guided away form MMA. It simply won't meet his needs.

[MasterPain]

Something else that will help is when older attitudes change. That MMA is not a worthy pursuit and only those with bad attitude need compete. When that changes the best instructors will point their best students toward MMA without shame or hesitation.

I'd disagree a bit here. Sure, there is attitude in MMA, much as any athletic endevor. Yes, I'd like to see that change. However, I dont' thing that makes it an unworthy endevor.

It's an excellent athletic accomplishment, to compete in full contact. MMA in itself also provides a relitively effective unarmed method of self defense, a major goal of any martial artist. I have a hard time faulting them simply bacause they are based out of a competitive outlet.

Competiton is not a bad thing. In fact, it instills some valuable things- the abilty to goal set, pursue via training and hard work that goal, put aside fear and face an obstical in front of everyone. All good things.

No, it is not a charater buidling device, but most sport psycologist will tell you that despite retoric, neither is traditional sport. We might teach team work, espirit de corpe, and the ability to perserve in traditional team sports, but we do not teach "charater".

I think also, with the advent of MMA as it's own niche art, we need to stop to consider that perhaps we need to make sure that students are training inthe right venue to meet their goals. If a student is bound and determined to fight MMA, then why try to keep in in a traditional karate school. It is not striving towards his goals. Better to refer him to a quality gym more focused to developing and integraing multiple diciplines related to fighting in the ring at those specific venues. Kata is not pushing him towards his goal, nor is time spent in tradional weapons or stances. Get him somewhere he can maximize his time.

Conversely, someone wanting to be part of an traditionl linage, who desires a rigid structure of response to attack patterns, like small joint manipulation, or who wants to become proficient in weaponry probibly should be guided away form MMA. It simply won't meet his needs.

I believe you missed his point. I think he was saying that there is a stigma attached to MMA now. Some instructors don't want their students competing because they perceive the game as being dirty. This will change as public perception changes, if they will quit making reality shows with fighters acting stupid.

I will agree that to compete at high level, MMA training should be the only focus. But for me the couple fights I did were about conquering fear of confrontation. Years in martial arts have made me more comfortable in dealing with people in general, and I am much less withdrawn. Martial arts can build character or turn someone into an arrogant jerk, depending on what they want. And some people just learn to fight better. Character can be built through playing hopscotch if it is the desire of the practitioner.

I just realized that I have a funny way of looking at things.

[Taiikuka]

I think we are saying the same thing in many ways just saying them a little different. My point is MMA is a style all its own now because it is so new no one wants to admit it but it is pretty much a way of training and a set of moves. Yeah people have their own "base" style but really most of that does get thrown out when you get really involved with high end MMA like the UFC. Like Karate was adapted off of Kung Fu for the people of Japan so to is MMA for fighters today.

[MasterPain]

I think we are saying the same thing in many ways just saying them a little different. My point is MMA is a style all its own now because it is so new no one wants to admit it but it is pretty much a way of training and a set of moves. Yeah people have their own "base" style but really most of that does get thrown out when you get really involved with high end MMA like the UFC. Like Karate was adapted off of Kung Fu for the people of Japan so to is MMA for fighters today.

It really is becoming its own style, but there are still occasions that you see a textbook (albeit no-gi) uchimata or some such thing that is distinctly from a certain style. I do think Machida has benefited from being a really good karate guy. Nobody knows how to deal with it.

I have noticed that almost no one uses sidekicks, backfists or hammerfists much. Their only good from certain angles, so a lot of peopledon't train them. One of my training partners has more or less a Muay Thai striking style, and throws a Goju style sidekick about once every 4 rounds, and it usually lands and hurts. I think someone will come along that uses them effectively someday, and we will see a revival of them.

[Taiikuka]

I hope your right but i think those days are gone and we will see more and more MMA style until there is no other arts involved.

[ShoriKid]

MastPain hit it Tallgeese. It isn't the attitude that the MMA guys have. It's the stance of the old hard line traditionalists that believe only thugs and punks are fighters. I spoke with a jj instructor I know up the road from my parent's home tonight. He talked about having some "MMA guys" with bad attitudes who tried to train at his last gym. I mentioned that it tends to be the 'would be' fighters and not the real fighters who I've mostly encountered with attitudes. I'm out of traditional roots, not as deep as some others, but it was what you would expect from a Okinawan Karate class. White gi, ordered line drills, kata, very controlled kumite, partner drills etc. And I find myself sticking up for the MMA guys.

Once those traditional guys ease up and realize that MMA guys are as much martial artists as anyone else that crossing over will happen.

[Taiikuka]

Another problem you have is many "fans" of MMA hate traditional arts now and only believe MMA is the right way to fight. I think both sides of this argument needs to chill out a lot.