Krav vs. Everything

[MasterPain]

[quote name="MMA_Jim"

Why ISNT krav moving in the right direction? Mostly because it DOESNT have competitions between practitioners. Competitions tend to be the proving ground for fighters' date=' and allow the style to adapt, progress, and become even better. Its no surprise that in the early UFC's the most successfull styles were those that were "sport" styles and they easily defeated those made for "real" fighting. There were no rules in the early events- those that did the sport fighting had more real world experience applying their tactics.

And finally, the good ol' groin pounding, eye gouging death touch argument. Know why I dont do those things in a fight? Because they dont work as well as so many people advertise. I've had people try to break my fingers, gouge my eyes, bite me, hit me in the groin, and every other "deadly" technique thats supposed to be kryptonite for every "sport" fighter and grappler. None of them worked in the slightest bit. They were more of a nusiance than anything else-laughable results at best.

And finally- you seriously think a grappler gets into a street fight and tries to get his opponent to "submit?" I could care less if the guy Im choking submits or not- hes going unconcious. Thats if he survives the hip toss that lands him on the concrete. Why wouldnt you try that? Perhaps it has something to do that you dont train in a grappling art..... [/quote]

Early UFC fights were won by grapplers. Sport or real striking arts were beat by grapplers. Wing Chun and Muay Thai are equal when Royce Gracie is on top of you. Krav is pretty much MMA plus weapons, if a krav guy wants to compete, he fights in mma. If he wants to fight mma at high levels, he'll train straight mma because there is no need to be good at weapons in the cage. That's like going to an mma school to compete at NAGA.

I accidentally kicked a guy in the groin today, it was 2 minutes before he stood up. Out of shape guys who never spar but do eye pokes and groin kicks in one steps aren't very effective, but when a boxer throws a thumb in your eye instead of a fist on your nose, it's effective. It's not that the deadly stuff doesn't work, it's that some people say "it's too deadly to train" instead of putting on protective equipment and training. Ever notice that when an mma fighter is poked in the eye, they tend to have the ref stop the action for a couple minutes until they can see?

The FMA people would tell you that you wouldn't need a hiptoss if you'd just beat someone with a stick. I agree that a martial artist should have a grappling art. Then again, my buddies poke fun at me for my lack of handgun training. Everyone draws the line of their training somewhere. Even SWAT doesn't crosstrain in precision airstrikes. Hard as we may try, no art is complete.

[Adamo]

Competition means nothing for an art meant strictly for self defense. And they don’t work? You mean to tell me that if I connected a hard kick to your groin you wouldn’t react? And who was truly trying to do all this. You are fully aware of the situation in a sport. In the street, if you are caught off guard you are going to freeze, run, or fight like an animal. You are comparing a sound human mind to one that isn’t. Not only that but in competition, there’s lots of rules. Not so in the street.

And if competition is the ultimate standard…why have they banned these techniques in almost all competitions?...Maybe because nobody wants their eye gouged?

Bas Rutten is a supporter of the Krav Maga system. You can find comments of his in black belt magazine and in forewards of Krav Maga books. Yes, he’s has a lot of training but when a man who’s had so much fighting experience and supports a system?

And hip toss on the concrete? You better do some more studying on the biological effect during survival. You are telling me that you are going to coordinate your legs and upper body to create an upper hand position in order to execute a hip toss? Fine motor movements. None of them are going to work. Those go out the window when your cortisol is pumping through your body.

And I’m not sure why you wish to result in mudslinging instead of keeping it to a mature level? And who’s to say I don’t do any grappling? Quite the assumption. Also quite the assumption that you are going to safely grapple with somebody on the ground. I hope for your sake this person doesn’t have any friends with him or weapons to resort to.

This system was created strictly to give people a self defense system. Not for people to work years on using a spinning back kick which would be ignorant to use in most situations. It's a system that can be learned quick and efficiently. No competition so people don't begin to water it down and so that nobody gets hurt.

Jim, if you GENUINELY believe that your MMA experience will save you in the street including situations including weapons (because we all know those are used very frequently) then that's excellent. I'm glad you feel that confident. But I hope you understand that comparing a self defense situation to sanitized competition isn't the best thing to do.

"People who fixate on fighting don't want to cure the disease, they want to choose the symptoms. As any doctor can tell you, you cannot pick and choose your symptoms. Winning or losing a fight--those are just symptoms. The disease is the behavior that got you into the fight."

-Marc MacYoung

Isshinryu5toforever, that's a problem all martial arts have. Not just Krav Maga has a few problems. Karate has problems, taekwondo is watered down, people debate over Jeet Kune Do, etc. That's an issue in just about all hobbies and sports. That really doesn't say a whole lot other then it's your duty to find a reliable school and instructor.

[MasterPain]

Competition means nothing for an art meant strictly for self defense. And they don’t work? You mean to tell me that if I connected a hard kick to your groin you wouldn’t react? And who was truly trying to do all this. You are fully aware of the situation in a sport. In the street, if you are caught off guard you are going to freeze, run, or fight like an animal. You are comparing a sound human mind to one that isn’t. Not only that but in competition, there’s lots of rules. Not so in the street.

And if competition is the ultimate standard…why have they banned these techniques in almost all competitions?...Maybe because nobody wants their eye gouged?

Bas Rutten is a supporter of the Krav Maga system. You can find comments of his in black belt magazine and in forewards of Krav Maga books. Yes, he’s has a lot of training but when a man who’s had so much fighting experience and supports a system?

And hip toss on the concrete? You better do some more studying on the biological effect during survival. You are telling me that you are going to coordinate your legs and upper body to create an upper hand position in order to execute a hip toss? Fine motor movements. None of them are going to work. Those go out the window when your cortisol is pumping through your body.

And I’m not sure why you wish to result in mudslinging instead of keeping it to a mature level? And who’s to say I don’t do any grappling? Quite the assumption. Also quite the assumption that you are going to safely grapple with somebody on the ground. I hope for your sake this person doesn’t have any friends with him or weapons to resort to.

This system was created strictly to give people a self defense system. Not for people to work years on using a spinning back kick which would be ignorant to use in most situations. It's a system that can be learned quick and efficiently. No competition so people don't begin to water it down and so that nobody gets hurt.

Jim, if you GENUINELY believe that your MMA experience will save you in the street including situations including weapons (because we all know those are used very frequently) then that's excellent. I'm glad you feel that confident. But I hope you understand that comparing a self defense situation to sanitized competition isn't the best thing to do.

"People who fixate on fighting don't want to cure the disease, they want to choose the symptoms. As any doctor can tell you, you cannot pick and choose your symptoms. Winning or losing a fight--those are just symptoms. The disease is the behavior that got you into the fight."

-Marc MacYoung

Isshinryu5toforever, that's a problem all martial arts have. Not just Krav Maga has a few problems. Karate has problems, taekwondo is watered down, people debate over Jeet Kune Do, etc. That's an issue in just about all hobbies and sports. That really doesn't say a whole lot other then it's your duty to find a reliable school and instructor.

I come from a background with similar concepts to Krav Maga, and I will say that for a self defense practitioner, a couple mma fights do a lot to help you learn to deal with the stress and fear of conflict, in a reasonably safe environment. I know it's not the same as self defense, but it's a deal closer than sparring with your friends. Stage fright is physically still fear, and it's good to be exposed to it. It's not for everyone, but can be a good tool for personal development.

[bushido_man96]

Eye gouges and groin kicks are not end-all, be-all techniques. Can they be valid? Sure. Can they fail, yes. The eye is a very small target to hit, so that's one thing to keep in mind. But, if a Boxer or MMA fighter can hit someone with a jab, then they can probably extend their fingers if they feel the need, and poke someone in the eye. There is cross over there.

Competition environments do involve rules, but they also often times involve well trained fighters. What competition brings to the table is active resisitance. If a Judoka who has practiced and performed a hip toss thousands of time in class and in competitions against resisting opponents who expect to be thrown in some way, and they still don't stop it, then to say that they could not perform it in street self-defense against someone who may not be expecting it, or no how to defend it, just doesn't jive.

MMA comps do have rules, too. And they are in place mainly for the protection of the competition, and the rules have made the competition better. But think back to the days when there were fewer rules, and how often a match was decided by a groin kick or an eye gouge. Not many come to mind.

[MMA_Jim]

Early UFC fights were won by grapplers. Sport or real striking arts were beat by grapplers. Wing Chun and Muay Thai are equal when Royce Gracie is on top of you. Krav is pretty much MMA plus weapons, if a krav guy wants to compete, he fights in mma. If he wants to fight mma at high levels, he'll train straight mma because there is no need to be good at weapons in the cage. That's like going to an mma school to compete at NAGA.

There is such a significant different when it comes to quality training. Just because some guy saw a triangle choke on youtube and thinks he can teach it to a couple of guys doesnt mean this guy is learning MMA on par with people actually proficient in their arts. In other words, MMA taught by sloppy instructors is still sloppy fighting.

I accidentally kicked a guy in the groin today, it was 2 minutes before he stood up. Out of shape guys who never spar but do eye pokes and groin kicks in one steps aren't very effective, but when a boxer throws a thumb in your eye instead of a fist on your nose, it's effective. It's not that the deadly stuff doesn't work, it's that some people say "it's too deadly to train" instead of putting on protective equipment and training. Ever notice that when an mma fighter is poked in the eye, they tend to have the ref stop the action for a couple minutes until they can see?

Been there done that- know why they take a couple of minutes to restart the action? Because they're allowed to. I've been hit in the groin, poked in the eye, etc etc, and its never stopped me in my tracks. I dont suddenly become paralyzed with pain just because I got hit. Yeah it hurts, but guess what- as a fighter Im kinda USED to pain. Thai fighters break their feet and hands during fights- they keep going. Boxers are getting punched as hard as other humans can muster, and jiu jitsu and judo guys are getting slammed full speed into the ground during competitions. A little groin shot and a little pain isnt something new.

[MasterPain]

Eye gouges and groin kicks are not end-all, be-all techniques. Can they be valid? Sure. Can they fail, yes. The eye is a very small target to hit, so that's one thing to keep in mind. But, if a Boxer or MMA fighter can hit someone with a jab, then they can probably extend their fingers if they feel the need, and poke someone in the eye. There is cross over there.

Competition environments do involve rules, but they also often times involve well trained fighters. What competition brings to the table is active resisitance. If a Judoka who has practiced and performed a hip toss thousands of time in class and in competitions against resisting opponents who expect to be thrown in some way, and they still don't stop it, then to say that they could not perform it in street self-defense against someone who may not be expecting it, or no how to defend it, just doesn't jive.

MMA comps do have rules, too. And they are in place mainly for the protection of the competition, and the rules have made the competition better. But think back to the days when there were fewer rules, and how often a match was decided by a groin kick or an eye gouge. Not many come to mind.

Very reasoned out post. 2 counterpoints, UFC 1 had no biting, eye gouging or fishooking. Joe Son vs Keith Hackney.

[bushido_man96]

2 counterpoints, UFC 1 had no biting, eye gouging or fishooking. Joe Son vs Keith Hackney.

You'll have to fill me in. I don't recall that fight. It might have been one I didn't see.

[MasterPain]

2 counterpoints, UFC 1 had no biting, eye gouging or fishooking. Joe Son vs Keith Hackney.

You'll have to fill me in. I don't recall that fight. It might have been one I didn't see.

After a later crime, I feel less sympathy.

You're right. It's not often, and they're not always fight enders, but I'd still rather be hit in my belly.

[Wastelander]

I'll admit right away that I haven't read this entire thread, but I am seeing the "competition vs. self-defense" argument and so I thought I would jump in here.

Can arts that actively compete be useful for self-defense? Yes.

Can arts that do not compete and focus on self-defense be useful for competition? Yes.

Does competing prove that your art will work for self-defense? Not necessarily.

What matters isn't so much the content (it does need to be effective content, but most martial arts do contain similar content that has been proven effective over time) but the method of training. At my old dojo we also had Haganah classes (very similar to Krav, but more controversial) and they were actively resisting each other in practice. If they were practicing on someone who stops as soon as you start to defend then it wouldn't be very useful for self-defense, now would it? Those guys didn't compete, either, but having trained with them I can pretty safely say that they could fend off an attack pretty well.

That said, I have trained Judo in two different dojos with different points of view on the art. My first dojo taught 50% tachiwaza (standing techniques) and 50% newaza (groundwork), although really it probably ended up being more like 35% tachiwaza and 65% newaza. That is because the instructor wanted us to know what to do in a grappling situation whether we were standing or on the ground and how to transition between the two. That is a self defense concept more than a competition concept--we very rarely ever competed outside of our own dojo tournaments (we had three affiliated dojos and twice a year they would hold a tournament together).

My second dojo taught tachiwaza almost exclusively (we worked two classes of groundwork in the two years I was there) because that's what wins competitions, and we did the throws with a lot more commitment than I ever did at the first dojo because that would make sure we threw a resisting opponent. That all works fine on tatami mats in a competition but do you know how many times the person throwing would end up hitting their head on the floor? That doesn't work out very well for you in a self defense situation. Sure, fighting with the adrenaline rush and stress you experience in a Judo competition is definitely going to give you an advantage in self defense, but it still doesn't do you a whole lot of good if you smash your own head on the ground when you throw the guy who grabs you.

tl;dr - Competition can be helpful and teach you to fight under stress, but it isn't the be-all-end-all method of determining effectiveness--how you train is more important than what you train and whether you compete.

At least, that's my take on it.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Wastelander

[MMA_Jim]

Competition means nothing for an art meant strictly for self defense.

You're giving your input on this- so the last time you stepped in the cage was _____

The stress of a cage fight is significantly more than the stress of a street fight. Street fights are laughable- I get into those for fun. I've been in just about every type you could think of- multiple opponents, weapons, larger opponents, etc. Again, I would joke and usually have a good time during those fights, because these people have no idea what they're doing, and are about as much a threat to me as a little kid is to a grown man.

And they don’t work? You mean to tell me that if I connected a hard kick to your groin you wouldn’t react?

Yeah I react- probably along the lines of hitting you back. Fighters are used to dealing with pain- its like asking if football players are used to getting hit....

And who was truly trying to do all this. You are fully aware of the situation in a sport. In the street, if you are caught off guard you are going to freeze, run, or fight like an animal.

Dont assume that your response is the same as everyone else. Street fights are a joke for me, because I train and fight with REAL fighters whos job is to do nothing but train to fight. I'll say it again- street fights are a joke for a well trained fighter. You can try that avenue of approach for new people entering your gym- it doesnt work on me.

And if competition is the ultimate standard…why have they banned these techniques in almost all competitions?...Maybe because nobody wants their eye gouged?

Yes, mostly because most of us want to have a career and dont want to be blinded for life. I dont need to see to be able to do jiu jitsu to you. Once I grab ahold of you, Im moving by what I feel, not what I see. So for that particular moment my eyes arent to most important thing when it comes to winning the fight. You could theoretically gouge them out and I could still choke you out. But, at the end of the day I still want to be able to see after all is said and done

Here is a true NHB match between a MMA fighter and a kung fu practitioner. A kick (which could have very well be aimed at the groin) is eaten so the fighter can take the fight to the ground. You can hear his friend saying "watch your eyes" as the kung fu guy tries for them- doesnt take much more than moving his head to avoid it. He follows this up with a snap of the arm.

And hip toss on the concrete? You better do some more studying on the biological effect during survival. You are telling me that you are going to coordinate your legs and upper body to create an upper hand position in order to execute a hip toss? Fine motor movements. None of them are going to work. Those go out the window when your cortisol is pumping through your body.

To be as mature as I can be-I really think you negated your entire argument with this statement. Did I really just read you state that you cant do a hip toss in a fight? I've done SEVERAL. Not only that, but I'll bet I can tell you Im going to do it, have you try to defend, and still pull it off. Why? Simply because I have in the past. According to your statement though, any and every judoka and wrestler cannot defend themselves in a street fight. Im not talking about researching things online- Im talking about doing them. Have you ever stepped into the cage? Have you ever been in a street fight? How many? Have you ever fought against anyone that legitamately knew what they were doing?

And I’m not sure why you wish to result in mudslinging instead of keeping it to a mature level? And who’s to say I don’t do any grappling? Quite the assumption. Also quite the assumption that you are going to safely grapple with somebody on the ground. I hope for your sake this person doesn’t have any friends with him or weapons to resort to.

This system was created strictly to give people a self defense system. Not for people to work years on using a spinning back kick which would be ignorant to use in most situations. It's a system that can be learned quick and efficiently. No competition so people don't begin to water it down and so that nobody gets hurt.

Jim, if you GENUINELY believe that your MMA experience will save you in the street including situations including weapons (because we all know those are used very frequently) then that's excellent. I'm glad you feel that confident. But I hope you understand that comparing a self defense situation to sanitized competition isn't the best thing to do.

I dont believe that my MMA experience will help me in a fight- I know it will. Im kinda like a scientist- I dont "believe" in things. I try to figure them out and KNOW them. I teach this stuff to professional fighters, to police, to some military people, and to the regular joe for self defense purposes. I know what I do works because I've literally done it hundreds, if not thousands of times. I've been in street fights, with "deadly" people, been outnumbered, been in the ring, been in the cage. I'd say that gives me an awful lot of weight in my argument- how about you?