Krav vs. Everything

[ps1]

The video has been removed by the user. Do you have another link?

[JiuJitsuNation]

That video sucked!!!! I'm kidding. I didn't get to see it either.

[sensei8]

I'm with ps1 and JiuJitsuNation...I couldn't see the video either!!

Edited September 5, 2010 by sensei8

[brickshooter]

IMO, the Krav Maga that is taught to actual IDF Commando is not being taught to the public. What I'm seeing out there is a watered-down edition that looks a lot like MT/BJJ combo with a little weapons defense.

Why? Probably because the whole point of teaching the public self-defense is ... self-defense. Not stalking and killing another human being, which is what commandos do.

I don't even think that what is taught to IDF commados are even taught to the rest of the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) nor police.

A lot of clever advertising.

[ps1]

IMO, the Krav Maga that is taught to actual IDF Commando is not being taught to the public. What I'm seeing out there is a watered-down edition that looks a lot like MT/BJJ combo with a little weapons defense.

Why? Probably because the whole point of teaching the public self-defense is ... self-defense. Not stalking and killing another human being, which is what commandos do.

I don't even think that what is taught to IDF commados are even taught to the rest of the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) nor police.

A lot of clever advertising.

I started reading your post with some hesitation. However, as I read on I might actually agree with it to some extent. The reason I say this is because of my own military experience. I remember what was taught to us (which was actually quite minimal). However, when i actually purchased the official training manual, there was alot of stuff in it that was not generally taught. Lots of psychological tactics and tactics for taking out a sentry and so on. It was quite interesting. It's also notable that there was alot of crap in it as well

[brickshooter]

I think that modern militaries teaches a soldier the skills he needs on a modern battlefield - marksmanship, concealment, calling in air strikes, navigation, cleaning a rifle, etc. At the very bottom of the list is where hand-to-hand combat is. And that's after a soldier loses his sidearm and knife.

Even at the commando level. I think their view of hand-to-hand combat is with the use of a dagger to kill. It's not an armbar or a MThai round kick.

I don't have an issue at the techniques taught in Krav schools. I think that they're all effective for self-defense. I just have an issue with the Krav marketing machine implying that they have a perfect system, because commandos, the military and the police use it.

Reality check. Commandos, the military and the police rotate in martial arts instructors from ALL styles to teach.

[MMA_Jim]

You guys have obviously never trained in commando krav maga because everything I have trained in that class is that opposite of finishing one guy before moving to the next and poor body movement. Ikno a few poliecmen and men in the military that tell me they wouldnt want any other martial art when it comes down to it, so I wouldnt bash it. But commando krav maga is diff from straight krav maga so they might not train the same as we do

I dont have to train in something to be able to "bash" it- I can clearly see when someone does or does not know what they're doing. Ive yet to see ANY krav instructor that is higher than a blue belt level as shown through their demostration, or any better than a hobbyist boxer. It seems so often as if they make up for these shortcomings by being "deadly" and eye gouging and groin kicking and everything else they can think of.

On a second note, military and police are not the best people to confer with with regards to which martial art is better to practice. They themselves dont train very often in hand to hand fighting and for good reason- wars are fought with rifles and mechanized forces and not hand to hand combat. Also, these soldiers are very athletic and strong, and its easy to simply tell them basic techniques and have them succeed- not because the choice of technique is good but rather because their athleticism makes up for poor technique. I've trained with and taught people in the armed forces- SEALS, close combatives instructors, etc. These are first hand accounts.

[Adamo]

I'm seeing some blanket statements made. The idea of watching one Krav Maga video and thinking everybody else is like that is just crazy. These same statements can be made elsewhere especially with the MMA craze.

Krav Maga is moving in the right direction unlike most arts. Most are sports heavy or tradition. Too frequently they rely upon fine motor movements. I don't practice Krav Maga so I'm by no means defending "my art."

As it's been said many times before...you can't talk about an art as a whole simply because of those you've seen practice. I'm sure we can find some real tough Krav Maga practitioners (like Bas Rutten.)

And I'm not sure about you MMA_Jim, but in a self defense situation, I WILL gouge a persons eyes, kick them in the groin and more. I'm not going to attempt to grapple to the ground and make them submit.

[MMA_Jim]

I'm seeing some blanket statements made. The idea of watching one Krav Maga video and thinking everybody else is like that is just crazy. These same statements can be made elsewhere especially with the MMA craze.

Krav Maga is moving in the right direction unlike most arts. Most are sports heavy or tradition. Too frequently they rely upon fine motor movements. I don't practice Krav Maga so I'm by no means defending "my art."

As it's been said many times before...you can't talk about an art as a whole simply because of those you've seen practice. I'm sure we can find some real tough Krav Maga practitioners (like Bas Rutten.)

And I'm not sure about you MMA_Jim, but in a self defense situation, I WILL gouge a persons eyes, kick them in the groin and more. I'm not going to attempt to grapple to the ground and make them submit.

Why ISNT krav moving in the right direction? Mostly because it DOESNT have competitions between practitioners. Competitions tend to be the proving ground for fighters, and allow the style to adapt, progress, and become even better. Its no surprise that in the early UFC's the most successfull styles were those that were "sport" styles and they easily defeated those made for "real" fighting. There were no rules in the early events- those that did the sport fighting had more real world experience applying their tactics.

Bas Rutten is not a Krav practitioner- hes a Dutch Muay Thai figher who learned some ground skills and competed actively in MMA. Such a skilled fighter can learn any RBSD style and apply it well- not because that RBSD style is good, but because his background pretty much allows him to execute whatever he wants to. In short, its Bas's Muay Thai that makes him a good fighter, not the Krav.

And finally, the good ol' groin pounding, eye gouging death touch argument. Know why I dont do those things in a fight? Because they dont work as well as so many people advertise. I've had people try to break my fingers, gouge my eyes, bite me, hit me in the groin, and every other "deadly" technique thats supposed to be kryptonite for every "sport" fighter and grappler. None of them worked in the slightest bit. They were more of a nusiance than anything else-laughable results at best.

And finally- you seriously think a grappler gets into a street fight and tries to get his opponent to "submit?" I could care less if the guy Im choking submits or not- hes going unconcious. Thats if he survives the hip toss that lands him on the concrete. Why wouldnt you try that? Perhaps it has something to do that you dont train in a grappling art.....

[isshinryu5toforever]

Krav Maga in the US has a few problems. First, they have no governing body, second, they don't compete, and third there is a lot of fake Krav Maga out there.

The first issue could be a non-issue, but it leads to number three. With Judo, you know what you're getting in the US. For your rank to be real, you have to be affiliated with one of the big three. If you aren't, you can't even shiai, which means you can't earn a higher rank anyways. Kyokushin and Shotokan have multiple governing bodies, as do the Okinawan Karate schools. So too do Hapkido, Taekwondo, and other Korean martial arts.

The second point is probably the most contentious. Some people don't think you need competition to prove how effective something is, others do. That one won't be settled in the near or far future. I'm from the camp that says hitting each other hard is the best possible way to test what you're doing, but that's just me. That's not what we're discussing.

The third point is the biggest. Not having associations of any kind has led to some people labeling whatever garbage they want to swill as Krav Maga. It's also led to a lot of advertisers taking advantage of the fact that it is used by the IDF. I'm going to say so what? The entire Japanese police force learns Judo, but that isn't its major selling point. Just because someone uses it doesn't make it good for everyone, but it is implied in a lot of Krav ads that Krav is the best self defense system for anyone. Just advertising of course, a lot of people do it, but when what you're doing isn't even Krav, it will create gigantic problems and it has.