High kicks in karate

[sojobo]

I suspect brickshooter is right. Certainly in my time training (from the mid 1970's) I've seen Karate being influenced by Taekwondo.

When I started in Wado Ryu there were only 4 kicks:

front

side

round

back

No ushiro-mawashigeri etc.

Side kick was perfected at knee height before moving on. The other kicks were primarily practiced in chudan.

Things in Wado are very different now, as with other Karate styles. Its clear to me that (in the UK at least) this is a direct result of karateka seeing people from other arts (eg. Taekwondo) do sexy flambouyant kicks and thinking 'I have to get a piece of that action'.

Going further back I don't think there's really much doubt - kicking above the waist was the exception rather than the norm in Okinawan Shorin Ryu. Every style of Shorin that exists now and hasn't jumped on the competition bandwagon reflects this method of training.

Mike

Hi Mike,

In the Wado dojo where I train, there are still only those kicks really.

What has affected many Wado dojo however is the WKF style shiai kumite that many groups seem to be drawn to these days.

This is where the TKD influences of the high kicks has perhaps come from in that kicks like ushiro mawashi seem to score well in these type of comps.

Look into Wado's heart though and you won’t see these kicks at all because they are combatively flawed in a lot of ways - certainly within the Wado logic of thinking.

But as a poster said of tradition / classical arts recently on another board I visit:

The main reason for the demise of classical martial arts are:

 

- They are too hard to learn.

 

- They take too long to learn.

 

- They kill and maim attackers - not strictly legal these days

 

- They don't look C00L

 

- They can be very boring.

 

- There are no trophies.

So I think you are also right when you say these kicks have been brought in to keep the arts "cool" in the eyes of the consumer.

Sojobo

[bushido_man96]

I'm not sure that TKD is the only culprit. Didn't the early kumite competitions that were held in Japan between the various university clubs do more high kicks, due to the rules of the kumites?

[Montana]

One thing that nobody has mentioned yet, is the fundamental purpose of the martial arts at the beginning of their existance.

Self-survival.

No worries about points. Forget trophies, and forgot how cool you look doing a high kick. Karate, JJ, KungFu, etc is all about, at the core level, self-preservtion of yourself, or others. Period.

High kicks are a relatively new "invention". They have little, or no, effectiveness outside of tournaments, demonstrations and "dojo fun times". High kicks, in a real fight situation, leave you with poor balance and most importantly, vulnerable to a wide variety of counter moves, not so say the least of which is your groin/knee area is totally exposed and suseptable to being taken out.

I've had this same discussion many, many times over the past 30 plus years with sensei from systems that do high kicks, flying kicks and jumping/spinning kicks. Yes, they look cool, but unless your opponent stands still like a post, they are generally very ineffective in a real situation.

I admire the athletic abilities of these people to do the gymnastics type of kicks that they do, but I'm from the old school...if it won't work in a real situation, then it's not worthwhile.

[Mike Flanagan]

I'm not sure that TKD is the only culprit. Didn't the early kumite competitions that were held in Japan between the various university clubs do more high kicks, due to the rules of the kumites?

Maybe so. I can only say it as I've seen it from my standpoint in the UK in the 1970's and 80's. I'm willing to concede there may have been other influences than Taekwondo over the years.

Mike

P.S. Really got to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Montana's points.

[Mike Flanagan]

In the Wado dojo where I train, there are still only those kicks really.

Hi sojobo

Although I don't do Wado anymore myself, its always a pleasure to hear of people still practising it as I remember it from my childhood. That seems to be something of a rarity these days!

Mike

[brickshooter]

One thing that nobody has mentioned yet, is the fundamental purpose of the martial arts at the beginning of their existance.

Self-survival.

No worries about points. Forget trophies, and forgot how cool you look doing a high kick. Karate, JJ, KungFu, etc is all about, at the core level, self-preservtion of yourself, or others. Period.

High kicks are a relatively new "invention". They have little, or no, effectiveness outside of tournaments, demonstrations and "dojo fun times". High kicks, in a real fight situation, leave you with poor balance and most importantly, vulnerable to a wide variety of counter moves, not so say the least of which is your groin/knee area is totally exposed and suseptable to being taken out.

I've had this same discussion many, many times over the past 30 plus years with sensei from systems that do high kicks, flying kicks and jumping/spinning kicks. Yes, they look cool, but unless your opponent stands still like a post, they are generally very ineffective in a real situation.

I admire the athletic abilities of these people to do the gymnastics type of kicks that they do, but I'm from the old school...if it won't work in a real situation, then it's not worthwhile.

I hear the same thing over the last 20 years. But every time I finish watching a Kyokushin tournament, I do question the conventional wisdom that high kicks don't work.

[Montana]

I hear the same thing over the last 20 years. But every time I finish watching a Kyokushin tournament, I do question the conventional wisdom that high kicks don't work.

Since I'm not familiar with the rules of that tournament, let me ask you.

1. Do they allow full power groin techniques?

2. Do they allow full power kicks to the knee?

3. Do they allow sweeps to the supporting leg?

Basically, are there rules? If so, then they negate the premise that the martial arts are based upon. That being no rules for selfdefense purposes.

[Kuma]

I hear the same thing over the last 20 years. But every time I finish watching a Kyokushin tournament, I do question the conventional wisdom that high kicks don't work.

Since I'm not familiar with the rules of that tournament, let me ask you.

1. Do they allow full power groin techniques?

2. Do they allow full power kicks to the knee?

3. Do they allow sweeps to the supporting leg?

Basically, are there rules? If so, then they negate the premise that the martial arts are based upon. That being no rules for selfdefense purposes.

Anytime you train in a class, you automatically place a ruleset on yourself. Competition is no different. As far as the above:

(1) In sparring, no, but can you name any martial art that spars with full power to the groin on a regular basis?

(2) Again, name one martial art that spars with full power to the knee on a regular basis. Although, since they do allow low kicks to the thigh (gedan mawashi geri), it's just a matter of target selection by that point. The same applies to attacking the groin area: it's target selection, not the technique itself.

(3) Actually, yes they do. Ashi barai (leg sweep) is a popular technique among some of the more technical fighters.

[brickshooter]

I hear the same thing over the last 20 years. But every time I finish watching a Kyokushin tournament, I do question the conventional wisdom that high kicks don't work.

Since I'm not familiar with the rules of that tournament, let me ask you.

1. Do they allow full power groin techniques?

2. Do they allow full power kicks to the knee?

3. Do they allow sweeps to the supporting leg?

Basically, are there rules? If so, then they negate the premise that the martial arts are based upon. That being no rules for selfdefense purposes.

1. Not Kyokushin. But I've also trained with Kempo Karatekas on occasions. They teach the "how to groin kick" very well. Yet their fighters still do high kicks when the opportunity arises.

2. No the knees. But they allow full power kicks to the septic nerve which incapacitates the entire leg when it lands. So the danger is still there.

3. Yes to sweeps. But they're not very good at it. They prefer to kick the leg out, but the result is often the same.

[Mike Flanagan]

I hear the same thing over the last 20 years. But every time I finish watching a Kyokushin tournament, I do question the conventional wisdom that high kicks don't work.

Its not so much a question of 'dont work' or even 'cant work'. We can always find examples of where they have worked for people in self-defence.

The question is, are they the safest, most reliable thing you can do under the circumstances?

Imagine the Kyokushinkai fighter being shoved from behind by his opponent's mate just as he's throwing a kick. How much more disruptive to his balance would it be if he's throwing a high kick at the time rather than a low kick?

Imagine that, instead of fighting on a clean flat mat, he's in a bar in which the floor is wet in patches with spilt beer and occasional bits of broken glass?

Imagine that the penalty for going down on your posterior is not that the fight is momentarily stopped by the ref, or even that the opponent wins the match, but that the assailant and his mates close in and kick you unconscious or worse.

And so on and so on. The gist of it is that the requirements of self-defence are very different from those of the sporting arena. The two scenarios require very different tactics.

Mike