Close Minded Martial Artists

[sensei8]

Interesting discussions!

It's hard to truly say and unfair to say, imho, that the traditional martial arts, ie karate, is unwilling to prove their art. Why? Nobody's visited every dojo in the world and/or trained with every martial artist in the world.

How is one to prove their arts effectiveness that will satisfy all?

[MMA_Jim]

Interesting discussions!

It's hard to truly say and unfair to say, imho, that the traditional martial arts, ie karate, is unwilling to prove their art. Why? Nobody's visited every dojo in the world and/or trained with every martial artist in the world.

How is one to prove their arts effectiveness that will satisfy all?

Fight

[Toptomcat]

Yeah, I've gotta agree there. Competing in an open format with as few rules as possible while retaining a reasonable degree of safety for the fighters- modern Unified Rules mixed martial arts, in other words- is an excellent laboratory to determine what works and what doesn't.

[Jay]

Yes we should test things agreed. But the problem is how the hell am I supposed to test the technique descrided. We have enough problems when training with it and people complaining when I get them in the eye and can't do anything for 10mins.

You can't test it in the ring because people will think you are being unfair and people will probably be succomed to eye damage. Its extreamly difficult to test on the street as im not just gonna go out and get into fights with people.

So how am I supposed to prove it.

[Toptomcat]

Spar with a resistant partner who has a good, protective pair of goggles on. See how often you can get a straight shot.

[sensei8]

Interesting discussions!

It's hard to truly say and unfair to say, imho, that the traditional martial arts, ie karate, is unwilling to prove their art. Why? Nobody's visited every dojo in the world and/or trained with every martial artist in the world.

How is one to prove their arts effectiveness that will satisfy all?

Fight

Fight! That's it? Fight! Ok...fair enough...but...fight how? How will fighting satisfy ALL/everyone?

[MMA_Jim]

Yes we should test things agreed. But the problem is how the hell am I supposed to test the technique descrided. We have enough problems when training with it and people complaining when I get them in the eye and can't do anything for 10mins.

You can't test it in the ring because people will think you are being unfair and people will probably be succomed to eye damage. Its extreamly difficult to test on the street as im not just gonna go out and get into fights with people.

So how am I supposed to prove it.

Well, thats problem one- it doesnt seem as if you used this technique very often at all to warrent its effectiveness. EVERY technique has a chance of working, what we want to know is does it work well, and does it work against a skilled fighter. Again you're putting alot of stock in a technique that you've never really used successfully very often.

Here is a true NHB fight between a kung fu practitioner and a MMA fighter. Its a rather old video, but the same argument was presented- deadly eye gouges and bites.

When doing the "Gracie challenge" which I use as a generic term for people who want to challenge jiu jitsu with their martial art, there are no rules. If you felt you could grab a groin or gouge an eye, go for it. No one ever made it work.... We'd only ask that people try not to bite, and simply stated if they did we'd bite back and make them regret it.

Eye gouges were used often during early MMA events as well, Yuki Nakai vs Gerard Gordeau probably being the most famous- a 100 lb heavier Gordeau eye gouged Nakai so badly that he is now permanently blind in one eye. He (Gordeau) also sank his teeth into Nakai's shoulder and neck. These were blatent, intentionaly, and obvious with no ref intervention. In the end, Nakai's grappling prowess proved to be the deciding factor when he heel hooked Gordeau.

Now, seriously- yes a finger jab may work, but look at your target. The technique only works if it hits such a small part of your opponents head. If you miss, you also stand a good chance of breaking your finger, and thereby preventing you from using that technique and perhaps many others (such as a simple punch) from that point onward.

A simple punch is much easier, less likely to break, and has a much broader range of targets. Can hit the jaw, nose, temples, cheeks, eyes, what have you. It just doesnt sound as glorious and deadly because people see it all the time when they watch boxing.

[MMA_Jim]

Interesting discussions!

It's hard to truly say and unfair to say, imho, that the traditional martial arts, ie karate, is unwilling to prove their art. Why? Nobody's visited every dojo in the world and/or trained with every martial artist in the world.

How is one to prove their arts effectiveness that will satisfy all?

Fight

Fight! That's it? Fight! Ok...fair enough...but...fight how? How will fighting satisfy ALL/everyone?

Unfortunately, one can never satisfy everyone. Again using the Gracie Challenge (anyone who wanted to try to beat jiu jitsu) as an example.

Some people are smart- they fight, get beat soundly and you say "now start training and find out why it is you lost." These peope would then sign up after being soundly beaten so easily.

Others just dont want to admit it, and they were plentifull as well. They get beat two, three, sometimes four times. They're allowed to use anything they want- and were told ahead of time - "the jiu jitsu practitioner cannot punch or kick- hes can only take you down. Then hes going to slap you around a little bit." And they did exactly that. They spent so much time training in whatever style they currently did and refused to open their eyes and would firmly believe that "if I just train a little harder in I can win" and they never learned to this day why they got beat.

[tallgeese]

Here's the thing, everyone is closed minded to a degree. MMA guys tend to be a bit more these days because they really do have a good format for testing what they do. I did it, I agree it's a good indicator of efficiency at a certain scope of tactics.

However, it is not the be all end all of everything.

Trad guys have a tendency to be closed minded about training outside thier art. Not everyone, but alot. This leads to a mindset that limits one's view of combat. This, in turn, leads to a narrow focus that often give them a bad name amoungts people either fighting in MMA or training for street sd.

Good tactics, ones that are not allowed in MMA, can and do work. Everyone jumps to the "it didn't kill or beat so and so" argument. True, but they do cause reactions, that's what creates movement and distractions. Highly motivated and trained fighters might be able to move on through them. Likewise, a highly motivated and trained fighter might move right thorough a solid cross.

It's about matching weapons to targets and weapons to situations. Each situation will differ based on opponant, setting, ect. I have a bunch of small joint manip backgroun that I never broke out in competition because of the skill set of the people I was fighting. However, I've used it very successfully in dealing with certain subject in real word encounters. Specifically, it's great for controlling a limb that has a weapon in it where it's control is paramount.

So, for the drunk guy who needs a bat or such taken away they become useful tools. For the ring fighter who will beat you silly while trying to get ahold of it, not so much so.

Situations dictate tactics. Period.

Mindset will determine how well those are executed.

Training will make them yours.

Mission specific training against realistic principles and resistances is key. Studies have show that training matched to your real word operation will create a "per combat" veteran. See Grossman and Siddell's work. That's how you can prepare with out the fight.

Right now, MMA guys are doing the above, mostly without knowing it. They have a mission, a situation. They have a good set of tactic to deal with it and usually a mindset to apply them against resistance. They use drills that will make those responses automatic. It's a good paradigm.

Sometimes, they don't understand that there might be other missions. Some trad schools do better and falling into the above pattern than others, but it's just a different situation. Train accordingly.

[bushido_man96]

Interesting discussions!

It's hard to truly say and unfair to say, imho, that the traditional martial arts, ie karate, is unwilling to prove their art. Why? Nobody's visited every dojo in the world and/or trained with every martial artist in the world.

How is one to prove their arts effectiveness that will satisfy all?

Fight

Fight! That's it? Fight! Ok...fair enough...but...fight how? How will fighting satisfy ALL/everyone?

You won't. Its weird to say, but there are a lot of people into the Martial Arts who aren't into it for the fighting. So, they are not likely to ever really test anything. Then, you get the other end of the spectrum, those who get into the MAs for the fighting. And then that crew usually gets the once-over by those who reprimand them with the "Martial Arts aren't just about fighting" routine.