Close Minded Martial Artists

[Jay]

I was just thinking today about a conversation I had with someone. I was in a line to go to my student union when as usual being a little intoxicated find myself speaking to almost everyone around me. I spoke to this one guy about martial arts, he was an MMA student at the local club.

Now we got into conversation about MMA and I conspired to say that I thought MMA was great but I felt it lacked a little bit when it came to the street and certain rules prevented me from using a finger jab. I implied that they do not learn little things like this which may come in handy on the street. He didn't seen very amused with me, maybe it was my wording but he thought I was bascially rubbishing MMA which was not the case at all. He just seemed to think to me that he was not open to what I was saying at all.

Now trying not to single a group of people out which I hate to do, but I was reading a post on another forum and again the attitude tends to be a you are doing a classical martial art, I rubbish you type thing from the MMA guys. Now this of course is all down to the evolution of the UFC and MMA in general. Im not saying anyone on this forum is like that but just observing what I saw.

These guys are the ones who originally thought that mixing and being open minded was a good thing. But now with BJJ and Thai Boxing being predominant they have just stuck with that. Again trying not to say they, some martial artists rubbish other arts that have been working for hundereds of years. Open mindedness turned into, 'I ,have found a partial answer all other answers are wrong'.

Has anyone else found this at all.

Jay

[ps1]

Well Jay, I'm afraid you'll find that attitude anywhere you go. Keep in mind that I train in BJJ. We have MMA guys come in all the time and tells us why they don't need to do this move or that move. It comes down to simple ignorance of the person with whom you're speaking. Many don't understand words, only action. So...after submitting them about a billion times, they start to come around.

The problem that many traditional martial arts have is in their unwillingness to prove what they are saying works. For example, what use would an eye poke be to an MMA fighter? None! It's an illegal technique in the sport. Of course they wouldn't train it. So you're using the wrong argument. You're better off to talk about the way you punch or kick or use foot work. Then you need to be willing to stand up and prove it works. Take Loyota Machida! He uses many traditional Shotokan techniques to great effect! But he was willing to prove they work.

The simple fact is you can't say a certain strategy works unless YOU are willing to prove it does. Otherwise, avoid the discussion all together, because it's not something words can ever prove.

Bill

[JAKEHE3078]

I have to agree with Ps1, my love will always be with shotokan but I also train other arts as well, including BJJ. What I see from the MMA guys is not that your're art or any art outside of BJJ and Muay Thai is rubbish, but that they feel that many other practitioners talk alot saying alot of, if this happens then do that. They want hard solid in you're face proof. Not just theory.

[bushido_man96]

What you'll find with a lot of MMA guys is that they are constantly proving what they do, in the ring. I'm not going to say that a ring fight and an actual fight are the same thing, but what it boils down to is applications put together in an environment that is very resistive, has few rules, and is win or lose.

Again, MMA is not the end all, be all. It does have its merits, though, as do all other styles. And yes, at one point the MMA scene was very open to learning different things, but this was period in which the style was becoming refined and "tightened" into what most fighters found to be the most effective combination of style/technique/background that ellicited success in the ring. Now, you have more of a set idea in MMA as to what works well, and what tends not to, and with any sport, you play to the rules, so that plays a part in things, as well. Sure, you have guys like Machida that come along and shake things up a bit, which is great, but in the end, he still plays by the same rules the others in his sport do. He just makes something different work for him.

Now, here is the other end of the stick. You bring up a lack of open-mindedness on the part of the MMAer you spoke with, but this came about when you pointed out things you didn't like about it. "This is great, but..." tends to lead to the idea that you are closed-minded about some things, just like he probably is toward more traditional things.

I think when it all comes down to it, we are all a bit closed-minded on some things, moreso than we may be willing to admit.

[BDPulver]

I totally understand where your coming from. Me and a coworker got into this same arguement. He swears MMA is better cause he also learned it in the Army. I tried telling him I was in the army too but we never learned it when I joined.

I've taken some classes on MMA just to learn what techniques they use to see if I could implement them in my style and self defense training.

But I will admit to being close minded on some subjects but not alot. Other then that when I talk bout MA I tried to tread lightly on the subjects so I dont get into situations like yours.

[JAKEHE3078]

Other then that when I talk bout MA I tried to tread lightly on the subjects so I dont get into situations like yours.

Thats why until late, I used to keep my mouth shut , or should I see fingers, in this forums. Now that I am getting older I'm starting not to care, and express my opinions more.

[Blade96]

and all this is why I avoid 'so-and-so's ma is the best-yours-is-garbage' type comments/threads/posts like the plague.

Even my own sensei gets into it. He's like 'you know shotokan is the best other ma came from shotokan' Well you'd say that anyway, I told him, him being a 7th dan.

My own personal opinion is that one kind of ma is right for one person but wouldnt be for someone else. I don't think any ma is 'the best'

But I stayed right out of it and didn't dare argue with Sensei

[Jay]

What you'll find with a lot of MMA guys is that they are constantly proving what they do, in the ring. I'm not going to say that a ring fight and an actual fight are the same thing, but what it boils down to is applications put together in an environment that is very resistive, has few rules, and is win or lose.

Again, MMA is not the end all, be all. It does have its merits, though, as do all other styles. And yes, at one point the MMA scene was very open to learning different things, but this was period in which the style was becoming refined and "tightened" into what most fighters found to be the most effective combination of style/technique/background that ellicited success in the ring. Now, you have more of a set idea in MMA as to what works well, and what tends not to, and with any sport, you play to the rules, so that plays a part in things, as well. Sure, you have guys like Machida that come along and shake things up a bit, which is great, but in the end, he still plays by the same rules the others in his sport do. He just makes something different work for him.

Now, here is the other end of the stick. You bring up a lack of open-mindedness on the part of the MMAer you spoke with, but this came about when you pointed out things you didn't like about it. "This is great, but..." tends to lead to the idea that you are closed-minded about some things, just like he probably is toward more traditional things.

I think when it all comes down to it, we are all a bit closed-minded on some things, moreso than we may be willing to admit.

I agree that they do like to test things, but again thats my point. I was just suggesting that this technique 'could' come in handy when in the street. My point was that I was just observing what is. MMA has limitations, all martial arts and people do, I was merly pointing them out, in this case I do not think I was being closed minded at all. Sure I can be closed minded, but this particular time I was just saying it as it was. I was just suggesting another option, it would be up to him to test it out if he so wished.

[JohnASE]

Martial arts snobbery is not uncommon, and it's not just an MMA thing. Traditional stylists are guilty, too. Most serious martial artists are passionate about their art. They train hard. They feel their time is well spent. They know their art is good. It's not much of a stretch from "My art is great!" to "My art is better than yours." Now, that's not the same thing as saying "Your art is worthless." or "I can't learn anything from your art."

Maybe the guy you met was closed minded about martial arts. Some people are. Or maybe he just got defensive when some drunk started trashing his passion. Maybe he mistook your attempt at intellectual discourse as a personal attack. I don't know how intoxicated you were, but maybe you mistook your attack as an attempt at intellectual discourse!

Anyway, I think it's normal for people to think their martial art is better than others, but I think most are capable of discussing the matter with a relatively open mind.

[MMA_Jim]

The problem that many traditional martial arts have is in their unwillingness to prove what they are saying works.[/b]

The simple fact is you can't say a certain strategy works unless YOU are willing to prove it does. Otherwise, avoid the discussion all together, because it's not something words can ever prove.

Bill

Bingo. This is the heart and soul of any discussion you're going to have with an MMA fighter (and myself). We can talk theory all day forever- it really never stops. In theory, every single technique works well. For example, everyone can come up with these amazing statistics about how little pressure it takes to rupture the eyes, explode eardrums, collapse this structure, destroy that one, etc etc.... then show the technique and say "see, this will work well!"

I just saw one episode of self defense thingy's on demand (national geographic or something) where they showed "self defense" experts who used eye gouges to escape a rear naked choke, and a throat grab that they claimed would help a woman save herself from an attacker who is mounted on her..... These people are the problem. They've NEVER tried what they're doing against ANYONE who has ANY idea what they're doing- they just invent stuff up, claim to be experts, and go on their way.

Theres absolutely NOTHING wrong with suggesting something or asking if a particular technique could work- i encourage my students to ask as much as possible. But when you do exactly what you do when you say "oh, well, mma fighters dont learn the finger jab and this is so usefull"

How do you know? Whens the last time you used a finger jab on someone? How many times have you done it? Did this person have any idea what they're doing? Is it video tapped? When a good instructor (we'll use generic MMA) shows a muay thai/bjj technique, its because hes done it a couple thousand times against other pros who are world class athletes, are familiar with the move, and were still unable to stop it- thats impressive stuff, not showing me what you can do to some scrub "street fighter" in a bar.

So, going back to the previous paragraph, I think you and many other TMA's set themselves up by criticizing things they have no business doing because the majority of the time they have no experience or expertise in the subject matter! It reminds me of all the guys gathered at the club to watch friday night fights. You'd think everyone's a professional cornerman listening to these people- "Oh he needs to let his jab go more, and see how his opponent is doing that? Hes got to start doing this to counter it." These people are trying to give their two cents and they dont even know how to walk (literally) while in the ring.

So, if you're going to make a claim or criticize something in the sport, be prepared to back it up (i.e. fight and win using the said technique). MMA schools have been through more than their fair share of challenge matches- people who thought they had something a little better. I dont mean to pick on it particularly, but I laugh when people come into my muay thai school and insist on telling my kru "well, I have a black belt in karate" and he tells them sternly "thats not going to help you here."

Oh, and on a side note- all the TMA's that regularly like to criticize MMA fail to understand one thing- the styles used in MMA were not made for MMA- they were made for combat and street fighting and ADOPTED to MMA. These styles are just as restricted as the next by the rules. The fact that despite the rules they still prove successfull showcases their versatility and therefore their effectiveness. They can win in a variety of different ways, inside or outside the rules, inside or outside the ring. When you make claims like "oh, well I cant use that in the ring so Im restricted and cant use the full extent of my style" you fail to realize that everyone else has to deal with the same restrictions, yet they still step up and manage to win. That statement is repeated so many times by people who fail to realize they're criticizing their own styles without knowing it- claiming that they're style is so dependant on one technique, that the removal of that technique renders the style ineffective... thats not impressive at all.