mcdojo?

[Toptomcat]

Martialart wrote:

I know, there's this idea of highly selective schools that train to high degrees of competence and just being a student of that school means something. But that's just an idea. Those schools don't really exist.

Ummm... actually, they do. I can think of several in my area, including the school I train at, that would fit this description. It sounds like you have had some very negative experiences with MA schools, but don't give up, good ones are out there.

I've got to second this. There is a lot of mediocre training out there, but there are also a fair number of schools that fit precisely this description. To find a lot of them you're probably going to have to shed some of your disdain for MMA and its associated disciplines, though.

There are ways of finding such schools- if you'd like me to help you out, PM me with your general location and I'll try to give you a hand.

[Martialart]

First of all, I'm not sure that you can bring nobility into settings were such things goes on. The leadership decides what is and what isn't. Secondly, with time, I believe what you bring in will open a cleft or difference between you and the others. And if you're the minority, don't expect anyone to follow your lead.

To illustrate, I trained for years in a very credible Japanese art with a highly ranked head instructor. But for instance, he ranked people in the way you describe. One student, who couldn't do the basics at all, was promoted to shodan and then promptly opened up his own dojo for kids. The head instructor then said to me "omg, he has opened a dojo. I have to learn him something now..". That student, and the rest that was promoted in that way, would pick on, bully and portray themselves as leaders due to their rank, even if (or perhaps because) weren't any good.

What I'm saying, with time, your training situation will get to you. And if it doesn't, the rest of the students try to get to you because you're different.

Actually, Siylla, we're one ahead of you there: we know no one will ever follow our lead. But with us, the cleft it forms between us and others is already there just by virtue of our age. My wife and I are both 45, and there's only a couple of other adult students like that, except for the instructors themselves. The rest of the students in the "adult" class are adolescents--and black belts at that. So, we're not really not part of their crowd.

But more importantly, we will never be an example to them, because they are allowed to be subminimal in their performance and still get promoted. So to them, there's my way of doing it and their way of doing it, and both are equal--just different. I don't think they even recognize the difference between good technique and bad. I really think to them it's just different shades of gray.

You know, one thing I have in all of this is a sense of history. By that, I mean that I can look back to a traditional hard style of Wado-Ryu karate that I took 27 years ago, in a small dojo in England. Things were no differnt then.

True, they were more demanding, but the instructor I had was an immature 30-something year-old man. He would flirt with the girls in the class (one it was rumored he was having an affair with). He would bully at times and brag about himself a great deal, and he generated a lot of cliquishness. It didn't cost much money to attend, but when I look back it was grossly unprofessional. The TKD Plus school I'm attending now, on the other hand, is very professional.

It would be great to have a class where the instructor had a real lineage going back to the creation of Taekwondo, was demanding and inspiring, and was worth following both as an example in the martial arts and as a moral human being. But that doesn't exist.

And since that doesn't exist, I'd rather go to a martial arts college like the McDojo I attend. The style is good. The instructors are very good in their techniques. The teaching is professional; the standards are clear, and the facilities are modern and well kept up. True, in the end, if you show up, you may well be promoted all the way to black belt with a minimum of effort on your part, but it's your choice--just like in college: someone with a 2.0 GPA gets a degree the same as someone with a 4.0.

I honestly believe we bring the nobility to our rank, not the other way around.

Thanks for allowing me to expound on this.

[DWx]

just like in college: someone with a 2.0 GPA gets a degree the same as someone with a 4.0.

Depends what system your in. Over this side of the pond our degrees are broken down into classes, you can get a 1st, 2:1, 2:2 or a 3rd. And depending on what institute you go to the "value" of you degree is more or less. And of course you can get kicked out if you fail to meet the minimum standards at the end of each year. The belts may not be broken down into these sub-class as such but the bit about what institute you go to definitely applies. If you go to X school and your teacher was Mr Y with a very good reputation for developing high quality students, then I'd say your belt was worth more than someone who got it from a poorer school. Of course it shouldn't be like this though, every school should be able to produce top-quality students but then again this is what this topic is about. Unfortunately paying the bills means its not really feasible for most to kick students out if they don't meet standards but it is something to consider.

In any case you never know, someone might see your good example and want to follow your lead. Competitions are a great proving ground and if students at your school see you winning, they may just ask what that is and will want to copy you and up their game. Or even in class sparring and you beat a higher belt or whatever. All you have to do is inspire them in order to become a good example that they want to copy.

BTW I'm not getting at you for where you train. If you don't have any other options then its the best you can do and you'll have to make the best situation out of it. To have some is better than to have none.

[still kicking]

DWx wrote:

Unfortunately paying the bills means its not really feasible for most to kick students out if they don't meet standards but it is something to consider.

Don't kick them out, but how about not promoting them until they measure up! Even young kids can learn what is expected, and that they have to measure up if they want the belt.

[Martialart]

In any case you never know, someone might see your good example and want to follow your lead. Competitions are a great proving ground and if students at your school see you winning, they may just ask what that is and will want to copy you and up their game. Or even in class sparring and you beat a higher belt or whatever. All you have to do is inspire them in order to become a good example that they want to copy.

BTW I'm not getting at you for where you train. If you don't have any other options then its the best you can do and you'll have to make the best situation out of it. To have some is better than to have none.

Perhaps you're right. Of course at this time, we are still pretty low in the ranks. They are going to make us green belts based on our prior experience, so the time to start being good example may be now. The future white belts may see some black belt flopping around in a hyung, but they will know it's not the way it's supposed to be if we at a lower level are trying to do it better.

Thanks for you input.

[Martialart]

Don't kick them out, but how about not promoting them until they measure up! Even young kids can learn what is expected, and that they have to measure up if they want the belt.

But that's just it! In a world where every child is a Ceasar waiting to be emperor when they get older, not promoting them is even worse than kicking them out. No parent would stand for their boy-king being denied the rank they believe they should have--especially after they've paid for the grading!

In this day and age, in every parents mind, their child is already a black belt, the school is just confirming it for a fee. And anyone wanting to make their living teaching martial arts has to know that--and cater to it.

It's like a trap from which there is no escape. But see, I actually don't have problem with it. When I get my black belt one day, I will have done all I could do, and I love the martial arts. So let the black-belt would-be emperors flop around all they want and look like clowns. In the end, anyone can order a black belt from a martial art store and tell people they are a black belt.

Perhaps that's all a belt is anyway. Perhaps what makes the black belt a living thing is that the person wearing it tries their best and loves the martial art they practice. If a person can say that, then perhaps that's all we can ask about a black belt.

[ninjanurse]

Don't kick them out, but how about not promoting them until they measure up! Even young kids can learn what is expected, and that they have to measure up if they want the belt.

But that's just it! In a world where every child is a Ceasar waiting to be emperor when they get older, not promoting them is even worse than kicking them out. No parent would stand for their boy-king being denied the rank they believe they should have--especially after they've paid for the grading!

True but manageable from my perspective. Rank is never denied but it must be earned to the satisfaction of me, not the student or parent. Trusting in this is very difficult in this world of instant gratification but I haven't had a student quit yet because they did not get promoted....and if it is approached properly it can even inspire them to work harder and eventually change their perspective on the value of the process. Sometimes it's just a matter of "they don't know what they don't know".

Perhaps that's all a belt is anyway. Perhaps what makes the black belt a living thing is that the person wearing it tries their best and loves the martial art they practice. If a person can say that, then perhaps that's all we can ask about a black belt.

Not all we can ask but a good start!

[ninjanurse]

I train at a McDojo. There is no question about it. We (my wife and I) just started at a TKD Plus school here in our area.

Both of us trained in the 1980's and then again for a year in 1999-2000, and now at this school. So, we've actually been able to watch the evolution of McDojoism. Heck, just last night I was talking to a 3rd degree black belt. I think he's fourteen. He said proudly that he's been training for three or four years, says he can't really remember (as if there have been so many years of his training).

That same night I also watched an instructor give a little colored tab to a white belt for doing his four basic stances. The problem is, he didn't have a clue how to do them. That's just good ol' McDojoism.

Everything costs: uniforms, badges, sparring gear, the yearlong contract, a signing up fee, books, videos, gradings, belts.

The adult class is usually almost all black belts of various degrees, and except for the instructor, none of them are adults. My wife and I, at 45, are like freaks in our white belts. Granted, last night there were about half and half. Half were adults of different colors, the other half were adolescents with various degrees of black belt.

I don't think the black belts actually know how to throw a punch. They flop about through their forms, and I hope when I get my green belt in a couple of months, I don't accidentally hurt one of them in sparring. They don't seem to know at all what a combination is. I will need to use a lot of control, and I will. I'm not out to prove anything. I learned to spar very hard in Higashi (Wado-ryu) Karate in England in the 80's, and that has stuck with me. This class has seen nothing like that--ever. Maybe a couple of the instructors have. But interpret that as you will: a real green belt is only evenly matched with the instructors.

The kids (that's what we call the black belts in the class) are allowed to talk during class. Sometimes they talk when the instructor is talking. To the credit of one of the Masters (I think it's master in the sense of "owner"), she admitted, she has to cater to kids, and the parents of kids, primarily in order to keep the business viable. If they are too heavy handed, the kids simply won't come.

I am ashamed at what I see. I am disgusted by it. When I think back to my Higashi days, I can't reconcile the two. Be that as it may, here's the thing: The style is very traditional Taekwondo (they call it Ho-Am Taekwondo, but it might as well be called Korean Karate, because that's what it is. It's like something General Choi would teach the Korean Military). The self-defense techniques are effective. The dojang is modern and well equipped. The actual instructors are disciplined and pretty good in their techniques, and they teach effectively. There is line work, forms work, sparring, and a lot of attention is paid to the lower belts (us).

So, all the ingredients are there for some very effective training--if one wants it. If you don't want it, you're still going to pass your gradings--that much is clear. But if you want it, there's no rule against making your dobok pop when you punch or kick. There's no rule against increasing your flexibility so you can kick higher. There's nothing that says you can't visualize an enemy while you're punching or kicking a target. There's nothing that says you can't do your forms with snap and precision. And that seems to be the example the senior instructors and Master-owners display. But they don't make you display it--not for a belt anyway.

And so, I have come to find that the McDojo I am in may be the most real martial arts class I have ever been in. The nobility of the black belt can't be handed to you, you still have to earn it, and that nobility is shown in your forms, your punches, your kicks, the speed of your self-defense techniques and in the aggression of your sparring. It is not at all evident in the degree of your black belt.

Yesterday, when I was doing my Chong-Ji (the white belt hyung [kata]), I made my dobok pop a couple of times when I punched. No one else did. But I noticed that night, at the end, before bowing out, the instructor gave a little speech about how the class needed to stop talking during stretching. She was kind in her words, but it was clear she wanted them to shut up from now on. So, maybe there's hope.

Oh, and why would I choose to train at a McDojo? The same reason as anyone--it's what's available in my area. If it weren’t for the three McDojo TKD Plus schools down here in the armpit of the United States, there wouldn't be any martial arts at all. So, I don't want them to change at all. I need the floppy black belt kids to keep coming and paying for their belts--so I can train.

Read through this again this morning after answering another thread and just had to comment. It is too bad that there are schools like this out there that are watering down their arts to make a "living" and those of us with some "old school" exposure have an entirely different perspective on this than those who don't, but...there is still value in what they provide to their students regardless of the standard they meet. A very small number of martial students actually achieve a Black Belt (by traditional standards) and to me those are the ones that will keep their arts alive. The others will enjoy their time and may eventually find a "true" path to follow-who knows they may even inspire someone to become a great martial master in spite of any standard they represent. My teaching philosophy is this: I will show you the way, guide you along the path, and redirect you if needed but it is up to you to do the work required to get there....effort is rewarded!

Stay on the path and stay true to your martial heart and regardless of those around you you will grow and inspire others to seek what you have.

[sensei8]

I'd rather deny the promotion and/or have the student quit, then promote them when they've [the student] not passed the test. Parents and the like can get upset all they want because I RUN THE DOJO...PERIOD! We've no testing fees at our Hombu, and if we did, money won't buy a belt, no matter how much they've paid or how much of a temper-tantrum they [parents/students] want to throw.

I'll close the doors to my dojo before I compromise my integrity, my art, and myself. Quit...I really don't care one way or another, I'll even hold the door open for them.

[Blade96]

I'd rather deny the promotion and/or have the student quit, then promote them when they've [the student] not passed the test. Parents and the like can get upset all they want because I RUN THE DOJO...PERIOD! We've no testing fees at our Hombu, and if we did, money won't buy a belt, no matter how much they've paid or how much of a temper-tantrum they [parents/students] want to throw.

I'll close the doors to my dojo before I compromise my integrity, my art, and myself. Quit...I really don't care one way or another, I'll even hold the door open for them.

*claps for Bob-sensei*

Good on you for wanting to preserve Shindokan and everything that goes with it, instead of comprimising its intgrity and the brilliance of the MA.

Your Da Soki should be very proud of you.