mcdojo?

[DWx]

Martialart, just had a look for TKD Plus to see what type of TKD it was and it seems its part of the ITA (correct me if I'm wrong). I've not really heard of the ITA and from YouTube I'm not overly impressed, rather the opposite actually. It certainly doesn't look credible.

However, having said that, if you yourself know what makes a good punch and kick and you have good teachers there's no reason why it can't be good effective MA. Like you said the kids just bring in the money to keep it running for those who are serious.

[bushido_man96]

Well, Martialart, I will say this, it appears that you are making lemonade out of lemons. Kudos for taking your training seriously in that venue. Perhaps it will make others follow suit.

[Martialart]

Martialart, just had a look for TKD Plus to see what type of TKD it was and it seems its part of the ITA (correct me if I'm wrong). I've not really heard of the ITA and from YouTube I'm not overly impressed, rather the opposite actually. It certainly doesn't look credible.

However, having said that, if you yourself know what makes a good punch and kick and you have good teachers there's no reason why it can't be good effective MA. Like you said the kids just bring in the money to keep it running for those who are serious.

Thanks DWx. The truth is, it's not credible. It's a franchise. But then, Taekwondo isn't really credible either, not if you realize it's just Japanese karate given a different name. There is a kind of public shame Koreans seem to have over Korea being occupied by Japan in the early part of the 20th century, and they will never admit that such an occupation might have brought with it a more advanced civilization, so there is a denial that Taekwondo is really rooted in karate.

And I took WTF Taekwondo for a year with an old Korean in Colorado Springs (who was very prominent in Olympic Taekwondo) who wouldn't even admit Karate existed or for that matter any other form of Taekwondo than WTF (Kukkiwon). He knows better. He was alive in WWII in Korea. He knows who General Choi is, and he knows Choi studied Shotokan Karate under Funakoshi in Japan. And even Shotokan Karate is not that old! Not even a hundred years yet.

My point is that every martial art in existence today is not that credible. The martial arts of bygone eras are probably not that much more credible. Samuri warriors were probably not as skilled as ledgend has it. In the military probably only 1 out of 100 infantrymen are really good at what they do on the battlefield. The martial art is a way (a "-do" by any other name), nothing more. We bring nobility to it.

TKD Plus, Ho-Am Taekwondo, the International Taekwondo Alliance is fast growing. It is a black belt mill, no doubt about it. BUT...

It is traditional (very traditional, like Shotokan-with-high-kicks traditional) Taekwondo. Today, I learned how to escape a from-behind headlock by dropping into a sitting stance (kiba-dachi in Shotokan Karate) and flipping the assailant over my back. I did it successfully with a man my size, a 280 pound man, and had it done to me several times. (because we are a McDojo, there's enough money for padded floors in the dojang). I'm a nurse in a psychiatric hospital. I needed to know that move. And TKD Plus taught it to me. It may well one day save my life--because I was so impressed with it, I'll never forget it.

On the other hand, tonight, in order to get a piece of blue tape on the end of my white belt, I had to do the Chong-Ji hyung (kata). I did it very well, if I may say so. Another guy did it and looked like he was making up a whole new pattern--everything was wrong from his stances, to the blocks to the punches--everything. We both got blue tape. My dobok popped with my punches, and all my movements locked at the end. He flopped around like a seizure. Tonight he was promoted just like me. But I'm not bitter. I bring the nobility to that blue electrical tape. And I'm coming to learn that that's what it's all about.

Thanks for letting me ramble.

[Martialart]

Well, Martialart, I will say this, it appears that you are making lemonade out of lemons. Kudos for taking your training seriously in that venue. Perhaps it will make others follow suit.

I hope so, Bushido-Man. But you know, I don't think we will. The guy who got the electrical tape, or the 2nd degree 12-year-old in front of me who couldn't make a correct front stance after being repeatedly told to correct his stance by the instructor is evidence that we will have no impact whatsoever. At best we will be the flat stone you get to skip twelve times on the pond before it sinks--but it means nothing when it's thrown against the Pacific Ocean.

If we maintain quality (my wife and I), we will acquire nobility in that class. People will watch us and envy us, even when we are warming up. I am arrogant enough to believe I am Divinely entitled to such nobility. However, I would never kid myself into believing I could change the tide of the world.

I laugh at myself even now: the white belt who would be king!

Delusional disorder at its best.

[DWx]

Having never trained with Ho-Am TKD, I'm not really in a position to comment. I'm sure that if you have good instructors and are willing to train hard, you'll be very good. I was just basing my opinion of them on a couple of videos I saw on YouTube. What I saw didn't impress me with the quality of technique shown but then again people could say that about the style of TKD I do and there are plenty of vids of people doing our style poorly.

Its a problem a lot of styles and schools have. If you want the the students and money sometimes quality control suffers.

[Blade96]

Martialart, just had a look for TKD Plus to see what type of TKD it was and it seems its part of the ITA (correct me if I'm wrong). I've not really heard of the ITA and from YouTube I'm not overly impressed, rather the opposite actually. It certainly doesn't look credible.

However, having said that, if you yourself know what makes a good punch and kick and you have good teachers there's no reason why it can't be good effective MA. Like you said the kids just bring in the money to keep it running for those who are serious.

Thanks DWx. The truth is, it's not credible. It's a franchise. But then, Taekwondo isn't really credible either, not if you realize it's just Japanese karate given a different name. There is a kind of public shame Koreans seem to have over Korea being occupied by Japan in the early part of the 20th century, and they will never admit that such an occupation might have brought with it a more advanced civilization, so there is a denial that Taekwondo is really rooted in karate

I was talking to my aunt's bf who has a BB in tae kwon do and told him i knew this art takes some of its moves from Shotokan

he said yeah i know =]

[bushido_man96]

Martialart, just had a look for TKD Plus to see what type of TKD it was and it seems its part of the ITA (correct me if I'm wrong). I've not really heard of the ITA and from YouTube I'm not overly impressed, rather the opposite actually. It certainly doesn't look credible.

However, having said that, if you yourself know what makes a good punch and kick and you have good teachers there's no reason why it can't be good effective MA. Like you said the kids just bring in the money to keep it running for those who are serious.

Thanks DWx. The truth is, it's not credible. It's a franchise. But then, Taekwondo isn't really credible either, not if you realize it's just Japanese karate given a different name. There is a kind of public shame Koreans seem to have over Korea being occupied by Japan in the early part of the 20th century, and they will never admit that such an occupation might have brought with it a more advanced civilization, so there is a denial that Taekwondo is really rooted in karate.

And I took WTF Taekwondo for a year with an old Korean in Colorado Springs (who was very prominent in Olympic Taekwondo) who wouldn't even admit Karate existed or for that matter any other form of Taekwondo than WTF (Kukkiwon). He knows better. He was alive in WWII in Korea. He knows who General Choi is, and he knows Choi studied Shotokan Karate under Funakoshi in Japan. And even Shotokan Karate is not that old! Not even a hundred years yet.

My point is that every martial art in existence today is not that credible. The martial arts of bygone eras are probably not that much more credible .

I'm a bit troubled here. Why do you say that Martial Arts aren't that credible?

[Martialart]

I'm a bit troubled here. Why do you say that Martial Arts aren't that credible?

What I mean is that if you want to start a school, and not just an incestuous club, you're going to have to apply the principles of business to making it work, and those principles are at odds with the integrity of martial arts.

A highly selective club is just a clique. I've seen small schools like that before, as you probably have. They are just as corrupt in their own way as belt mills.

I know, there's this idea of highly selective schools that train to high degrees of competence and just being a student of that school means something. But that's just an idea. Those schools don't really exist.

Case in point, everyone thinks MMA ultimate fighting championships style is the real deal. Those guys are real fighters! Yeah, and they were before they took Brazilian Jujitsu as well. They're also big. And after they throw an obligatory kick and "go to ground," they are no different than wrestlers in Ancient Greece were.

Others think that Ninjitsu is the real martial art, as if anyone would assasinate anyone these days without using a bomb or a rifle--or a letter with anthrax in it--or a jet airliner.

The fact is, if you want your MMA/Ninjitsu school to survive, you have to cater primarily to kids whose parents have fat wallets and want to see their kid become something other than just another negative creep walking around the house with an attitude. To do that, you're going to have to set the bar pretty low for a black belt, or you won't have enough people signing up to keep the doors open.

The mystique of martial arts is what has no credibility. Martial arts training is like college. You get out of it what you put into it. Everyone gets a degree if they meet the minimum requirements for one, and anything extra comes from the student who made it matter for themselves. One might as well go to a McDojo.

Noble people bring nobility to the martial arts. The martial arts makes bullies and heroes equally. It inherently has no credibility. Only the credible students of it give it that.

[still kicking]

Martialart wrote:

I know, there's this idea of highly selective schools that train to high degrees of competence and just being a student of that school means something. But that's just an idea. Those schools don't really exist.

Ummm... actually, they do. I can think of several in my area, including the school I train at, that would fit this description. It sounds like you have had some very negative experiences with MA schools, but don't give up, good ones are out there.

[Sibylla]

On the other hand, tonight, in order to get a piece of blue tape on the end of my white belt, I had to do the Chong-Ji hyung (kata). I did it very well, if I may say so. Another guy did it and looked like he was making up a whole new pattern--everything was wrong from his stances, to the blocks to the punches--everything. We both got blue tape. My dobok popped with my punches, and all my movements locked at the end. He flopped around like a seizure. Tonight he was promoted just like me. But I'm not bitter. I bring the nobility to that blue electrical tape. And I'm coming to learn that that's what it's all about.

Thanks for letting me ramble.

First of all, I'm not sure that you can bring nobility into settings were such things goes on. The leadership decides what is and what isn't. Secondly, with time, I believe what you bring in will open a cleft or difference between you and the others. And if you're the minority, don't expect anyone to follow your lead. To illustrate, I trained for years in a very credible Japanese art with a highly ranked head instructor. But for instance, he ranked people in the way you describe. One student, who couldn't do the basics at all, was promoted to shodan and then promptly opened up his own dojo for kids. The head instructor then said to me "omg, he has opened a dojo. I have to learn him something now..". That student, and the rest that was promoted in that way, would pick on, bully and portray themselves as leaders due to their rank, even if (or perhaps because) weren't any good.

What I'm saying, with time, your training situation will get to you. And if it doesn't, the rest of the students try to get to you because you're different.