mcdojo?

[still kicking]

Martialart wrote:

In a world where every child is a Ceasar waiting to be emperor when they get older, not promoting them is even worse than kicking them out. No parent would stand for their boy-king being denied the rank they believe they should have--especially after they've paid for the grading!

I don't think it is true that "no parent" would stand for it. I'm sure there are other potential students or parents who are turned off when they see the low quality of black belts, and will go somewhere else to train. If parents are informed of the standards and reasoning behind it ahead of time, they can choose whether they want their child to have quality martial arts instruction, or just have their "boy-king" wear a meaningless black belt, which, as others have said before, can easily be purchased at any martial arts supply outfit anyway. In my opinion, the instructor is selling himself short to think that this is the only quality of student he can attract.

I don't know how big your town is, and maybe you feel that this is your only choice for now, but I wonder if in the long run it will bother you to be associated with this organization. It's a tough position to be in.

[still kicking]

Martialart, I just reread your original post, and you mention that there really are no other options in your area. In that case, perhaps your best bet is to grit your teeth and stick it out, so that you can get your rank and start teaching and grading in the way you think it should be done.

Also, my bad for assuming your instructor was male. As a female martial artist myself, I should know better!

[Martialart]

I'd rather deny the promotion and/or have the student quit, then promote them when they've [the student] not passed the test. Parents and the like can get upset all they want because I RUN THE DOJO...PERIOD! We've no testing fees at our Hombu, and if we did, money won't buy a belt, no matter how much they've paid or how much of a temper-tantrum they [parents/students] want to throw.

I'll close the doors to my dojo before I compromise my integrity, my art, and myself. Quit...I really don't care one way or another, I'll even hold the door open for them.

Well, that all sounds very good. My guess is you don't run a dojo for profit. If you aren't trying to make a living at running a dojo, then you can call the shots. If you are, the customers call the shots--or at least they do to a very large degree.

[Martialart]

"I wonder if in the long run it will bother you to be associated with this organization. It's a tough position to be in."

I have wondered this myself. But the ITA (International Taekwondo Alliance) is growing. And the ITA can't be faulted. We have their DVD for White-Red belt forms and techniques. And the person demonstrating them is very good in his technique. The style itself, as I've said, is very traditional. At the school we go to, the instructors are really good in their technique. But they are a business, and you don't make dollars by failing your students.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in some way there has to be another way of judging the "quality" of a black belt. I mean, let's say some guy from some obscure Karate club has a black belt. Who says it's worth anything?

At least in the ITA belt-mill, they have a national database of every belt everyone ever earns. Technically, it takes 22 months to get a black belt if you pass every grading. Which one is more legit?

And what if a person earns a black belt, but then stops training? Do they eventually stop being a black belt?

[Sibylla]

Martialart: Thank you for explaining further. People are different in what works for them. But I don't think time limits for rank says that much. In my previous system training two times a year could be interpreted as a full year of training by the head instructor. And he gave out dan rank as he pleased and no one above in the organization would question it. That didn't mean that there weren't good students and instructors in the system. But in my country it wasn't and as a student you would be wasting a lot of your time and never get beyond a certain point unless you were prepared to train for instance in Japan. This was not something that beginners would be informed of.

[DWx]

Got to say Martialart, I agree with Sibylla that 22 months for a blackbelt is a really short time. Its not even two years. I probably wouldn't question it that much if I found quality examples of ITA students on stuff like YouTube.. but I can't.

is a guy testing for his 3rd dan. Can't say I'm impressed.

If you want to compare it to the unknown blackbelt from the obscure Karate club, this is where competition is great. Open style or even just against clubs of the same style but different groups will show you what level people are on.

And what if a person earns a black belt, but then stops training? Do they eventually stop being a black belt?

Actually my instructor says that if a person stops training altogether then they are no longer a blackbelt. If they walked back into the dojang twelve months down the line they wouldn't look like or have the ability of a blackbelt so they aren't really one anymore. When we do have people turn up again, he still lets them wear their old belt (unless its been a really long time) but they are generally not considered that rank yet. Unfortunately most that come back can't hack it anymore and stop training again after a while.

[ShoriKid]

Quality control has always been, and will continue to be, a problem in any art. Without a uniform, enforceable standard that's how things are going to be. And you can't have that sort of standard with different styles and even gyms/dojos out there unless everyone has to be in some big organization.

If you want to compare it to the unknown blackbelt from the obscure Karate club, this is where competition is great. Open style or even just against clubs of the same style but different groups will show you what level people are on.

But then who's rules do you compete by? Their's? Someone elses? My students would fair poorly under typical TKD rules. Most any TKD student would fair equally as poorly under the rules we spar with. So, if my students do poorly under a rules set they don't train under, does that mean they are poorly trained?

Part of what a dojo/jang/gym needs are objective standards that every student has to live up to. If they have to know certain kata/forms, then they should be able to preform them with a high degree of technical ability, at least for their rank(I don't expect yellow belts to be great, but a brown belt should be smoking forms). If they are supposed to be able to fight well under their rules set, then they should be able to do that against anyone in that format. Even if they aren't winning, they should be technically sound and able to hold their own against people of equal ability.

[DWx]

If you want to compare it to the unknown blackbelt from the obscure Karate club, this is where competition is great. Open style or even just against clubs of the same style but different groups will show you what level people are on.

But then who's rules do you compete by? Their's? Someone elses? My students would fair poorly under typical TKD rules. Most any TKD student would fair equally as poorly under the rules we spar with. So, if my students do poorly under a rules set they don't train under, does that mean they are poorly trained?

Of course you don't just turn up to a totally different style and expect to win. Maybe not directly comparable but say your school is Wado Ryu Karate and you compete against others of the style and not necessarily win but look like you're meant to be there, then that can be a decent indication of how good a person is. Or if you want to compete against TKD, go to an open style tournament and have a go. TBH how does any school prove they are good? Competition is just one way.

[Martialart]

Got to say Martialart, I agree with Sibylla that 22 months for a blackbelt is a really short time. Its not even two years. I probably wouldn't question it that much if I found quality examples of ITA students on stuff like YouTube.. but I can't.

is a guy testing for his 3rd dan. Can't say I'm impressed.

That's exactly what I'm talking about (that guy in the video). There's no effort in his punches or kicks or snap in his blocks. He just looks like he's reciting a hyung from memory. In fact, he looks the way I do when I'm first trying to memorize a hyung. It's a farce. It's a farce because he looks physically capable of doing better. I don't care how high his kicks are, but if they're low, then they should be with good form and power. When he blocks, he should look like he's actually trying to block something, and when he punches, he should look like he's trying to hit something.

It seems in the ITA, that the real black belts have the senior instructor black stripe around the lapel of their dobok top (not the black strip around the hem of it--that signifies a black belt who doesn't want to teach). Most of the senior instructors seem to do their techniques quite well, or at least the one's I have wittnessed so far.

So, I would say that in ITA, the way to tell the real black belts from the ones who just pay the dues to keep the dojang open are the ones who become senior instructors. No one says this, but I think it's something that's understood. I have a feeling becoming an instructor is not something anyone is guaranteed or can pay for. So, it seems that that's where they crack the whip on standards. In fact, the instructors don't pay for their membership, they just teach, so there's no incentive to "attract" them to the dojang. They don't help pay the rent.

Perhaps that's something I should aim for. Who knows? It's a long way off. I must admit though, it is kind of sly on their part. It's like, "Oh sure, your four year old can get his 6th dan, but he'll never be an instructor."

[still kicking]

Martialart wrote:

"Oh sure, your four year old can get his 6th dan, but he'll never be an instructor."

Four year old 6th dan, ha ha ha. Maybe they should just give them 10th dan at birth and save everybody a lot of trouble. (I know you were slightly exaggerating, right?)