What do you guys think about Lyoto Machida?

[Sokusen]

Just go to youtube and type in Sabaki challenge, plenty of hard hitting full contact Karate. The problem is you are comparing apples to oranges. You are taking an MMA fight and comparing it to a point tournament. As you know they have completely different rule sets. You are going to have to alter your game plan depending on the rules given. You can’t even compare the Sabaki challenge to MMA since you can’t punch to the face and there is no ground attack in Sabaki. Every style has a front kick, ever style has a hook punch, and every style uses knees and elbows. It depends on the given moment or in this case, rules, on how to use them. Machida took his karate and has supplemented it to the rule set that he is fighting in. His base is Karate. His mind set is Karate. Is it traditional Shaotokan? Depends on what he is doing, but I would argue it is still Karate.

On another note be careful in using such absolutes as all Karate does this or all Karate does that. I believe it is dojo dependent. I study Uechi, which is a very direct form of Karate. Grab the person and bash him in the face and hammer his legs; not very tournament friendly. Probably more suited for Kyokushin style tournaments then point sparring. But in our dojo we work on both types, since both has something to offer. I have been to other dojos of the same style that work on neither types of sparring, and other dojos that focus on one and not the other. In every case the fighting looks different, but it’s all Uechi.

[bushido_man96]

I do think that Machida's style is different than the majority of what is seen in MMA. I'm sure he does hit Thai pads, and work different combinations than what might be found in point Karate tournaments.

I do think that his Karate training has an impact on the way he fights. I also think he had likely taken some Boxing and Thai along for the ride, as well. It seems that there is always an agruement for purity in the Martial Arts...pure Karate, or pure BJJ, or Muay Thai, or what have you. Fighting is so dynamic that it is going to change and adapt. What most "pure" forms of Karate are now probably don't resemble what first came about on the Ryukyu Islands so many years ago.

[AustinG010]

It's people like him that give shotokan a good name

[JAKEHE3078]

MMA_Jim wrote:

I think you need to support your assertion that Machida's evasive, defensive, decision-oriented game plan is 'textbook' Muay Thai, lest things dissolve into 'nuh-uh, yuh-huh' ad infinitum. What Muay Thai-trained fighter has achieved high-level competitive success with that kind of gameplan under Thai rules, and where can I find video of their fights? If this approach is as 'textbook' as you claim, you ought to be able to name a dozen examples offhand.

Let me start off by saying that nobody can ever be an absolute authority of an art, I do not care how long you have been training. However you can become more and more knowledgeable and aware with proper training and instruction, but the opposite can hold true as well.

When I mentioned "textbook" I was referring to the push kick (or front kick, whatever you wish to call it) followed up by a punch. An evasive gameplan actually would not be very traditional muay thai, but there are various styles of fighters within styles of fighting themselves.

Here is a you-tube video that is showing basic footwork and techniques performed at a formal test. At 0:57 you can see basic shifting footwork, then at 2:54 front kick followed by a punch (mae-geri / oi-zuki)

More examples of footwork. 1:05 is a good start on developing karate footwork, then at 1:54 you can see how the foot work is used.

There are plenty of muay thai videos to be found online on youtube. Show me a karate video where someone is throwing good combinations such as jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, and the like.

I think at: 17 is a good example

Take for example the WCL which was Chuck Norris's brainchild. Plenty of karate fighters on there, and it looked significantly different than what Machida does.

Uhm yeah ok, Karate can be used as a catch phrase at times. Lyoto Machida only refers to Shotokan Karate-Do, that is a traditional Japanese Karate. Not some hybrid art like Chun Kuk Do. Chuck norris has never studied Japanese Karate of any sort. He studied Tang So Do which happens to be a Korean art. So you're example of Norris is useless. When we refer to machida and his karate we are refering to Shotokan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Norris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyoto_Machida

You can call what he does whatever you want, but if you're calling it karate (as even he prefers to) understand that its completely different than every other style of karate out there (as even he and his father say it is). Regardless, the only thing his karate seems to share with other styles is the name.

Food for thought

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c_nz-VLCKw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQoLMIkbeBA

[bushido_man96]

Tang Soo Do, although Korean, does have its roots in Karate styles. So, it is related to Karate.

[JAKEHE3078]

Tang Soo Do, although Korean, does have its roots in Karate styles. So, it is related to Karate.

However it may be related to Japanese Karate, but it is indeed not Japanese Karate. It is still a Korean art that is labeled as a Korean Karate style, not Japanese. To illustrate, lets look at Ice Cream. Ice cream comes from milk, it is not milk but it is made from milk. The end result of Ice cream is something completely different from milk. The milk that it came from is not what it used to be. It is now Ice Cream. Its essence has changed, its look, its texture, its flavor, it is no longer milk it is now Ice cream. Milk and Ice Cream are both Dairy products, but still two very separate and distinct things.

[Toptomcat]

Tang Soo Do, although Korean, does have its roots in Karate styles. So, it is related to Karate.

However it may be related to Japanese Karate, but it is indeed not Japanese Karate. It is still a Korean art that is labeled as a Korean Karate style, not Japanese. To illustrate, lets look at Ice Cream. Ice cream comes from milk, it is not milk but it is made from milk. The end result of Ice cream is something completely different from milk. The milk that it came from is not what it used to be. It is now Ice Cream. Its essence has changed, its look, its texture, its flavor, it is no longer milk it is now Ice cream. Milk and Ice Cream are both Dairy products, but still two very separate and distinct things.

The difference is closer to that between french vanilla ice cream and vanilla ice cream, really. It's a Korean martial art that also happens to descend very directly from Japanese karate, and the similarities far, far outweigh the differences. I say this as a current student of both.

[RW]

I'd have to disagree. While he's picked up elements of Muay Thai, as has everyone at a high level in MMA, his standup strategy does indeed flow from karate. Orthodox Muay Thai is very fond of block-and-counter, with little emphasis on evasive footwork: Machida's primary method of standup defense is evasive footwork. His trick of appearing to stop to reset, then countering when his opponent steps in to take advantage of it, is Shotokan through and through.

You're referring to classic thailand muay thai as opposed to more modern muay thai. Classic thai has since learned from western boxing and incorporated the proper footwork. Footwork is not a strong staple of shotokan or any type of karate due mostly to their deep stances and one strike one kill philosophy.

His stance is very far from a Muay Thai stance: deeper, more mobile, southpaw, and more leg-kickable as Shogun Rua showed in their recent fight. He doesn't even check low kicks, which is considered extremely basic in MT, because the stance changes needed to do so would interfere with his footwork..

Again this is simple boxing mechanics incorporated as muay thai was exposed to the western world. Someone like Wanderlei Silva, for example, almost never throws leg kicks. A lower stance allows for a stronger punch. This is simple boxing mechanics which has become add on for ANY modern muay thai school since its inception. Again, Lyoto isnt out there practicing katas, hes throwing combinations and hitting thai pads- things non-existent in karate.

Also, Machida is far from the only karate guy in MMA. GSP and Bas Rutten are both karateka. He is the only significant karate guy in MMA not to base his striking on Kyokushin karate or one of its offshoots, but that's a different story.

No, GSP is a mixed martial artist, skilled in boxing, wrestling, and jiu jitsu. Bas Rutten is a Muay Thai fighter turned Pancrase practitioner. Just because they started in karate when they were younger does not make them karate fighters. What karate doesnt teach that is evident in these (and other) MMA fighters:

-combinations (karate is one strike one kill, with no hand combinations at its inception)

-hooks

-kicking with the shin (exception kyokushin)

-steping out to kick through an opponent

I started with Shotokan, did some Tang Soo Doo, and a little Tae Kwon Do before finally switching to Muay Thai. None of the previously mentioned influence my style of fighting whatsoever.

If St Pierre, Machida, and Rutten still practice their katas, reverse punches with hands by their hips, and low deep stances, then I'll gladly say they've combined their karate with muay thai

If they work combinations, hit the thai pads, and work in with clinches, knees, elbows, and the like while not doing the above- they have replaced their karate with muay thai

So you do know that MT is not like the classic one huh? And that it combines boxing elements now (and may I say, boxing punches).

So Muay Thai is allowed to evolve and change according to times and exposure to other styles, but karate is not? Dude...

And once again, yes, the UFC karate guys do cross train. You will NEVER see a pure karate guy in the UFC. Nor will you see a pure fighter from any other style, including Muay Thai or BJJ.

Edited April 18, 2010 by RW

[Chuck]

So you do know that MT is not like the classic one huh? And that it combines boxing elements now (and may I say, boxing punches).

So Muay Thai is allowed to evolve and change according to times and exposure to other styles, but karate is not? Dude...

And once again, yes, the UFC karate guys do cross train. You will NEVER see a pure karate guy in the UFC. Nor will you see a pure fighter from any other style, including Muay Thai or BJJ.

Very solid point.

If you go back far enough the sparring styles of either MT or Karate would not look like the sparring styles of present.

[JAKEHE3078]

The difference is closer to that between french vanilla ice cream and vanilla ice cream, really. It's a Korean martial art that also happens to descend very directly from Japanese karate, and the similarities far, far outweigh the differences. I say this as a current student of both.".

Same but still diffrent. The techniques are the same, but it is all in the theory, the way its trained, and apllication.