What do you guys think about Lyoto Machida?

[Chuck]

Footwork is not a strong staple of shotokan or any type of karate due mostly to their deep stances and one strike one kill philosophy.

In our Shotokan Dojo, foot work is very improtant. Deep stances are only for Katas. We us short fighting stance. Ryoto (Lyoto) Machida uses the counter stike method which our Sensei preaches all time (i.e. step back blocking incoming strikes and counter stike with combos).

Again, Lyoto isnt out there practicing katas, hes throwing combinations and hitting thai pads- things non-existent in karate.

Black Belt advance basics in JKA uses combinations all the time. From 3rd Kyu and up, we practice combos. However, in Shotokan there is only linear strikes no hooks/upper cuts with the fist. Although rising/inside/outside blocks can be used as strikes (hooking and upper cut motions).

What karate doesnt teach that is evident in these (and other) MMA fighters:

-combinations (karate is one strike one kill, with no hand combinations at its inception)

-hooks

-kicking with the shin (exception kyokushin)

-steping out to kick through an opponent

The one strike one kill is old school. With point fighting in Shotokan, one strike one kill is very difficult to score the point. Students are trained to throw combos to win points.

Low kicks are very evident in Karate. Advanced basics covers sweeping of the feet. Kicks using chudan (mid level) or geden (lower level) are more effective and accurate (even most Katas have chudan and gedan level kicks).

If they work combinations, hit the thai pads, and work in with clinches, knees, elbows, and the like while not doing the above- they have replaced their karate with muay thai

knees and elbows are in many katas if you learn the bunkai; atlhough they may not be like Muay thai.

In advance basics there are elbow combinations practiced.

[MMA_Jim]

Lots of people try to make lots of points- but again, show me a karateka who fights MMA and trains SOLELY karate for his standup. I understand Machida has extensive karate background, and many others did as well- this may help influence his fighting style, but that does not neccessarily mean that his fighting style is karate.

It looks like muay thai- because every muay thai gym I go to, I see these things being done. I dont see these things done at ANY karate dojo, yet every karateka wants to claim it as such. So please, a little evidence (and perhaps a few videos) would be greatly appreciated

[Toptomcat]

Show me anyone on a high level of MMA who doesn't cross-train. You're setting an impossible standard of purity, one that is by your own admission regularly violated by Nak Muay.

[Sokusen]

Seriously, you want evidence of how people train? So because I hit pads I now do Muy Thai? Because we work on combinations I now do boxing? But I also practice kata so am I now doing Uechi? Just because someone supplements there training with non traditional methods doesn’t mean they are studying a different style of martial art. Machida became the fighter he is today because of his Karate background, and really good genes. When he fought Evens he hit Evens with a front kick immediately followed by a punch that rocked him, this is text book point sparring. The difference is he wasn’t trying to score a point he wanted to knock him out. Machida is a master of distancing, something, in my opinion, he learned from point sparring; how to hit someone without being hit.

Here he is in a karate tournament in 2005, this is not Muy Thai.

What I think MMA did for Karate and most likely any martial art that contains forms or kata, is make people re-examine their kata. Maybe that knee in my kata could be a flying knee. Maybe that elbow could also be used when on the ground. The mechanics are all there in the kata its how you view it. That’s why Karate is a life long journey. You should always be reexamining what you are learning. When you do it doesn’t mean you are studying a different style it means you have an open mind.

[JAKEHE3078]

He is exactly what IMO, what Shotokan Karate should be. I was at the U.S. Open last weekend, and I just could not get into it. It seems like even at an international level, the only thing that is evolving is the footwork. Karate is not supposed to go stale and stagnent it is meant to evolve and to become your own Karate. That is why Lyoto Machida calls his Shotokan Machida-Do, it makes sense, he has made it his own. We have Katas with many techniques that are not used in everyday karate sparring that can be effectivley used, like said before elbows and knees. Look at Heain yodan, elbows and knees are being introduced at green belt level, but nobody takes notice at that.

Lyoto Machida does practice true Shotokan. He may also do other styles as well depending on the situation but his main stand up base IS SHOTOKAN. Countless other Karate-ka have the ability to evolve into the Karate player that Lyoto Machida is, if WE STOP FOCUSING SO MUCH OF OUR TIME IN THE DOJO ON KIHON-WAZA, and start concentrating on application.

[bushido_man96]

I enjoy watcing Machida fight. I think he brings something to the table that changes things a bit. He has great distancing capabilities, which I think is his major strength in fights. He controls the ring very well.

[MMA_Jim]

Seriously, you want evidence of how people train? So because I hit pads I now do Muy Thai? Because we work on combinations I now do boxing? But I also practice kata so am I now doing Uechi?

No, thats not exactly the case- you're misunderstanding. You can hit pads all you want. When you start hitting pads with a muay thai instructor who corrects you and takes you under his wing- then you're doing muay thai. When you're doing something thats not regularly found in your system, you are no longer training in that system. And I do mean regular. Karate practices (or has as much expertise if you will) grappling about as much as BJJ practices or has as much expertise in striking- I dont care about what's "historically" in the books- every style has every technique available in theory- Im interested in practice.

Just because someone supplements there training with non traditional methods doesn’t mean they are studying a different style of martial art.

Agreed, but again there are differences between supplementing and replacing ones style.

Machida became the fighter he is today because of his Karate background, and really good genes. When he fought Evens he hit Evens with a front kick immediately followed by a punch that rocked him, this is text book point sparring. The difference is he wasn’t trying to score a point he wanted to knock him out. Machida is a master of distancing, something, in my opinion, he learned from point sparring; how to hit someone without being hit.

Its also text book muay thai...

By Machidas own admission what he does is very different than what other karate is currently practiced as. Again its like Carlson Gracie claiming that Vitor Belfort was a jiu jitsu fighter during the early years of his career- it just wasnt the case. And again even Machida likes to point out how old karate was very much like mixed martial arts with all the moves, but ironic that hes the only one thats shown to be exceptionally proficient in it. I find it hard to believe one family just happened to hold on to the "real" karate. Surely being raised in Brazil, the fighting capital of the world between jiu jitsu, judo, and muay thai had something to do with it...

Here he is in a karate tournament in 2005, this is not Muy Thai.

No argument there

What I think MMA did for Karate and most likely any martial art that contains forms or kata, is make people re-examine their kata. Maybe that knee in my kata could be a flying knee. Maybe that elbow could also be used when on the ground. The mechanics are all there in the kata its how you view it. That’s why Karate is a life long journey. You should always be reexamining what you are learning. When you do it doesn’t mean you are studying a different style it means you have an open mind.

Hey, I'll give you that- its all well and good to try to expand ones horizons, but given that theres so many karateka that DONT do what Machida does, it begs the question- who really represents the style when they fight?

[Toptomcat]

I think you need to support your assertion that Machida's evasive, defensive, decision-oriented game plan is 'textbook' Muay Thai, lest things dissolve into 'nuh-uh, yuh-huh' ad infinitum. What Muay Thai-trained fighter has achieved high-level competitive success with that kind of gameplan under Thai rules, and where can I find video of their fights? If this approach is as 'textbook' as you claim, you ought to be able to name a dozen examples offhand.

[JAKEHE3078]

Hey, I'll give you that- its all well and good to try to expand ones horizons, but given that theres so many karateka that DONT do what Machida does, it begs the question- who really represents the style when they fight?

Honestly, from what I see not many.

[MMA_Jim]

I think you need to support your assertion that Machida's evasive, defensive, decision-oriented game plan is 'textbook' Muay Thai, lest things dissolve into 'nuh-uh, yuh-huh' ad infinitum. What Muay Thai-trained fighter has achieved high-level competitive success with that kind of gameplan under Thai rules, and where can I find video of their fights? If this approach is as 'textbook' as you claim, you ought to be able to name a dozen examples offhand.

When I mentioned "textbook" I was referring to the push kick (or front kick, whatever you wish to call it) followed up by a punch. An evasive gameplan actually would not be very traditional muay thai, but there are various styles of fighters within styles of fighting themselves.

There are plenty of muay thai videos to be found online on youtube. Show me a karate video where someone is throwing good combinations such as jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, and the like.

Take for example the WCL which was Chuck Norris's brainchild. Plenty of karate fighters on there, and it looked significantly different than what Machida does.

You can call what he does whatever you want, but if you're calling it karate (as even he prefers to) understand that its completely different than every other style of karate out there (as even he and his father say it is). Regardless, the only thing his karate seems to share with other styles is the name.