What do you guys think about Lyoto Machida?

[explosive_power]

the lone Karate guy in the UFC..

His Karate style really confuses his opponents.

and his techniques are spot on..

[MMA_Jim]

I dont care what he practiced as a kid or what his style is labeled in his profile- he does muay thai now.

Maybe a little karate back then, maybe his dad taught him karate- but he does muay thai now.

Him claiming karate is kinda like when Vitor Belfort claimed Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and came into the UFC with 1-2 punch combos knocking everyone out- its simply not whats listed in his style field.

[Toptomcat]

I'd have to disagree. While he's picked up elements of Muay Thai, as has everyone at a high level in MMA, his standup strategy does indeed flow from karate. Orthodox Muay Thai is very fond of block-and-counter, with little emphasis on evasive footwork: Machida's primary method of standup defense is evasive footwork. His trick of appearing to stop to reset, then countering when his opponent steps in to take advantage of it, is Shotokan through and through. His stance is very far from a Muay Thai stance: deeper, more mobile, southpaw, and more leg-kickable as Shogun Rua showed in their recent fight. He doesn't even check low kicks, which is considered extremely basic in MT, because the stance changes needed to do so would interfere with his footwork.

Also, Machida is far from the only karate guy in MMA. GSP and Bas Rutten are both karateka. He is the only significant karate guy in MMA not to base his striking on Kyokushin karate or one of its offshoots, but that's a different story.

[MMA_Jim]

I'd have to disagree. While he's picked up elements of Muay Thai, as has everyone at a high level in MMA, his standup strategy does indeed flow from karate. Orthodox Muay Thai is very fond of block-and-counter, with little emphasis on evasive footwork: Machida's primary method of standup defense is evasive footwork. His trick of appearing to stop to reset, then countering when his opponent steps in to take advantage of it, is Shotokan through and through.

You're referring to classic thailand muay thai as opposed to more modern muay thai. Classic thai has since learned from western boxing and incorporated the proper footwork. Footwork is not a strong staple of shotokan or any type of karate due mostly to their deep stances and one strike one kill philosophy.

His stance is very far from a Muay Thai stance: deeper, more mobile, southpaw, and more leg-kickable as Shogun Rua showed in their recent fight. He doesn't even check low kicks, which is considered extremely basic in MT, because the stance changes needed to do so would interfere with his footwork..

Again this is simple boxing mechanics incorporated as muay thai was exposed to the western world. Someone like Wanderlei Silva, for example, almost never throws leg kicks. A lower stance allows for a stronger punch. This is simple boxing mechanics which has become add on for ANY modern muay thai school since its inception. Again, Lyoto isnt out there practicing katas, hes throwing combinations and hitting thai pads- things non-existent in karate.

Also, Machida is far from the only karate guy in MMA. GSP and Bas Rutten are both karateka. He is the only significant karate guy in MMA not to base his striking on Kyokushin karate or one of its offshoots, but that's a different story.

No, GSP is a mixed martial artist, skilled in boxing, wrestling, and jiu jitsu. Bas Rutten is a Muay Thai fighter turned Pancrase practitioner. Just because they started in karate when they were younger does not make them karate fighters. What karate doesnt teach that is evident in these (and other) MMA fighters:

-combinations (karate is one strike one kill, with no hand combinations at its inception)

-hooks

-kicking with the shin (exception kyokushin)

-steping out to kick through an opponent

I started with Shotokan, did some Tang Soo Doo, and a little Tae Kwon Do before finally switching to Muay Thai. None of the previously mentioned influence my style of fighting whatsoever.

If St Pierre, Machida, and Rutten still practice their katas, reverse punches with hands by their hips, and low deep stances, then I'll gladly say they've combined their karate with muay thai

If they work combinations, hit the thai pads, and work in with clinches, knees, elbows, and the like while not doing the above- they have replaced their karate with muay thai

[Toptomcat]

First of all, I think you're underestimating the breadth and depth of the karate systems. Most of the features that you mentioned as immutable aspects of any karate school anywhere are really just the emphasis of the traditional curriculum of those karate styles most influenced by Japanese budo. The non-traditional sport sparring curriculum of Shotokan both incorporates combinations and has a heavy emphasis on the kind of in-and-out evasive footwork Machida often displays, and the traditional curricula of some of the less Japanized, more Okinawan karate systems that stem from Miyagi rather than Funakochi contain some of the technical aspects you identified as unique to Muay Thai, such as hooks and kicking with the shin. This mistake is perfectly understandable, since all of the karate systems you mentioned can ultimately trace their lineage through Funakoshi, who more or less defined the differences between Okinawan and Japanese karate.

Even if you hadn't made any mistakes on that front, I think you're employing something of a double standard: if muay thai incorporates enough boxing to drastically transform its stance and tactical approach it's just the difference between 'modern Muay thai' and 'classic Thailand Muay Thai', whereas if karate does anything but hip-chambered reverse punches and kata in the ring they've just replaced their karate with Muay Thai. Similarly, the fact that someone competed in a non-karate ruleset (Bas) or even trained extensively in other arts after first learning a great deal of karate (GSP) doesn't mean that they've crossed some threshold that makes what they're doing 100% not karate. Of course you have to cross-train for success in MMA: that's true for nak muay and karateka alike. That doesn't mean that I can claim that Anderson Silva is primarily a BJJ guy just because he has serious rank in that system, or is primarily a boxer because he has a pro boxing record. Everyone in MMA mixes martial arts: don't insist on different standards of 'purity' for different arts.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Toptomcat

[sensei8]

Footwork is not a strong staple of shotokan or any type of karate due mostly to their deep stances and one strike one kill philosophy.

I can't speak with undeniable authority about shotokan, but, I can speak with undeniable authority when I speak about Shindokan; no deep stances and no one strike one kill philosophy! Not all karate are the same.

I liked karate too when I did it. It has its applications, but is also limited in comparison.

Imho, every martial arts style is limited in comparison. To speak about karate and/or any other style of the martial arts with such a broad stoke of the brush isn't fair because I'm a Shindokan practitioner, but, I'm first me and in that, I'm different, as we all are, therefore, my core style has expanded beyond anything that's Shindokan within me.

MMA_Jim wrote:

What karate doesnt teach that is evident in these (and other) MMA fighters:

-combinations (karate is one strike one kill, with no hand combinations at its inception)

-hooks

-kicking with the shin (exception kyokushin)

-steping out to kick through an opponent

What's described here is found in the Shindokan, a style of karate.

While Machida is Shotokan by all that I've seen, he's a mixed martial artist inside of the UFC Octagon. By that I mean that while Shotokan is his core foundation within the martial arts, he's taken a little of this and a little of that to form what he considers as an effective style to compete with inside of the UFC Octagon.

"Take what is useful, disgard the rest"~Bruce Lee. Don't we, as martial artists do this for ourselves? Well, from what I've seen, Machida does it as well.

[tallgeese]

I agree with tomcat on this one. Watching Machida fight one can clearly see the karate influence in what he does.

Most of what you mention (combinations, striking through targets, ect.) do very much exsist in many combative strains of karate systems. Nor do all karate systems place such heavy emphasis on kata that they do nothing else as training modalities. Some systems do very little.

Of course each fighter has evolved into the "mixed" area. That does not mean that they no longer "do" an art and it certainly does not mean that what they are doing isn't heavily influnced by former practice in a system.

As for Machida, I think a critical analysis of his stance, timing, and movement indicate a karate background.

[quinteros1963]

His base is Karate, but he also has a black belt in BJJ. He also trains in other fighting arts. So karate is his claim, but he like all MMA's train in many arts.

Also there are many guys that have karate as their first art, but cross train to become solid fighters. Bruce Lee called it JKD

[mr_obvious]

I'd have to disagree. While he's picked up elements of Muay Thai, as has everyone at a high level in MMA, his standup strategy does indeed flow from karate. Orthodox Muay Thai is very fond of block-and-counter, with little emphasis on evasive footwork: Machida's primary method of standup defense is evasive footwork. His trick of appearing to stop to reset, then countering when his opponent steps in to take advantage of it, is Shotokan through and through. His stance is very far from a Muay Thai stance: deeper, more mobile, southpaw, and more leg-kickable as Shogun Rua showed in their recent fight. He doesn't even check low kicks, which is considered extremely basic in MT, because the stance changes needed to do so would interfere with his footwork.

Also, Machida is far from the only karate guy in MMA. GSP and Bas Rutten are both karateka. He is the only significant karate guy in MMA not to base his striking on Kyokushin karate or one of its offshoots, but that's a different story.

Concur 100%. Lyoto's default stance is far from the standard forward-tucked Muay Thai stance. BTW, another "Karate Fighter" is Chuck Liddell (Kempo is tattooed on his delt).

[JAKEHE3078]

I'd have to disagree. While he's picked up elements of Muay Thai, as has everyone at a high level in MMA, his standup strategy does indeed flow from karate. Orthodox Muay Thai is very fond of block-and-counter, with little emphasis on evasive footwork: Machida's primary method of standup defense is evasive footwork. His trick of appearing to stop to reset, then countering when his opponent steps in to take advantage of it, is Shotokan through and through. His stance is very far from a Muay Thai stance: deeper, more mobile, southpaw, and more leg-kickable as Shogun Rua showed in their recent fight. He doesn't even check low kicks, which is considered extremely basic in MT, because the stance changes needed to do so would interfere with his footwork.

Also, Machida is far from the only karate guy in MMA. GSP and Bas Rutten are both karateka. He is the only significant karate guy in MMA not to base his striking on Kyokushin karate or one of its offshoots, but that's a different story.

Concur 100%. Lyoto's default stance is far from the standard forward-tucked Muay Thai stance. BTW, another "Karate Fighter" is Chuck Liddell (Kempo is tattooed on his delt).

I also agree. Look up some wkf clips on you-tube, and you will surely see he is Karate.