a question please(re: religion and the martial arts)

[mel]

A question please...if you follow Zen, would you be held back in taking up the more Taoist martial arts Bagua and Taichi? Or, if you're a Taoist, would you have hesitation in taking up something like Hung Gar, or Wing Chun?

Do forgive and grant me patience if you please, and it may look as if I have a little too much time on my hands by this posting...but it's just that I've been rather curious about this matter. I did come across a website(of which I no longer have access, or knowledge of it's location) some time ago which claimed that some of the old Shaolin monks may have also taken up not only Taichi, but also Bagua-zhang...but I wondered if this was historically accurate

[tonydee]

I do not believe there can be any martial art that requires the practitioner follow a specific religion in order for the techniques to be effective, because I don't believe there's any religion granting exclusive access to any power or ability. All techniques of martial arts are accessible to anyone moving correctly and with the right attitude and state of mind, and the latter elements can not be the exclusive domain of any particular religion / meditative practice etc..

As a Buddhist, I believe that whatever Nature really is, interaction with it follows certain rules (as per physics), perhaps malleable based on state of mind/intent, but independent of labels and symbols - even gods. Buddhists don't want to get sidetracked pursuing some esoteric power just for its own sake, any more than they should fixate on seeking everyday physiological power. Even within Buddhism, different schools have different ideas about how likely esoteric practices are to lead to being sidetracked (from advancement towards enlightenment). I'd say it depends on the individual, and their reasons for and attitudes to the experience of practising / learning the chi/ki exercises in bagua and tai chi, but some Buddhist groups may set a guideline based on the lowest common denominator and steer all members away from this.

More generally, religions might dictate whether some (possibly empty) subset of martial arts techniques should be studied, and if/when/how they may/should be applied in a conflict, but each actual technique and skill of any martial art is otherwise only loosely correlated with religion, and only to the extent that some religion's practices help train the body/mind to react to conflict situations in a particular way (e.g. fearlessly) - allowing the technique to be applied optimally, and may help sustain directed effort during training.

Regards,

Tony

[Spodo Komodo]

One thing I have noticed is that in the East, labels are not applied so exclusively as in the West. In Nepal I met people who followed Buddhism and a form of Hinduism (or even Christianity). Many of my Chinese friends are Buddhists who also study the Tao and all of my Japanese friends show reverence to Buddhism and Shinto. If a system is rooted in a particular religion then it can be useful to know something about the basic ideas of that religion but I don't think it necessary to become a devout believer to the exclusion of all else. I am a Buddhist but I have no trouble with Taoist Tai Chi, I have found it interesting and useful to read a little about the Tao though.

[Toptomcat]

Zen is not monolithic: its practices can be primarily religious or primarily philosophical. Zen's more religious branches would likely be incompatible with Taoism, while its more philosophical branches would have less of an issue.

Regardless, only the most dogmatic follower of religious Zen would have too much of an issue with studying a martial art with Taoist roots, unless the person teaching it is also a hard-line Taoist who plays up the style's religious aspects.

Whichever is the case, both Taijiquan and Baguazhang have traditionally been associated with Chinese martial monasteries, but not those of Shaolin: located in the Wudang mountains of Hubei province, they were quite a distance from Shaolin in Henan province. Whoever says that those arts were taught at Shaolin is likely conflating separate legends of Chinese martial monks- either deliberately, to capitalize on the Shaolin 'brand', or accidentally.

[wingedMonkey]

I agree with the rest of these guys here the martial art is for everyone, the commoner as well as the king. So for example, I practice traditional stuff like hung gar and have gotten into Tai Chi for a balance. I just look at the theories behind them but not really the religion because everything has a counter in this world.